Evolution or Intelligent Design? - Page 2 - TravelPUNK Backpacker College Student Budget Travel Message Boards!

**weirdbeard** · 12-12-2005, 07:40 PM

I think it's ok for religion to be spoken of in school. You certainly can't ignore or deny its existence because it permeates almost every subject throughout history and has had its impact on everything far and wide. I think however, its such a broad topic it would require a class devoted to the subject. This wouldn't be a bad idea as long as it would be in dicussion form but it could easily spark a lot of tension, not to mention the postion of the teacher would have to remain a neutral one, excluding their own moral postiotns. Another problem is that I don't think children and most teens(didn't say all) wouldn't be mature enough to deal with the subject matter and the religious preferences of others. I agree with LFOD, These beliefs are so personal that it's ultimately better to leave public prayers and things like intelligent design out of teaching all together in my opinion. This is what parents are for. Having said that I'm glad each of us here can discuss this in a civil manner. Makes me glad to be among such mature and refined company.

**TheJake** · 12-12-2005, 08:19 PM

while at the same time many would argue that evolution is in itself a belief and just a theory. And since religions can be defined as theories than why discriminate?

If no ID is taught than why should any another theory be taught as absolute?

**MeTurk** · 12-13-2005, 04:49 AM

Evolution is a theory but I would say it's fairly close to the truth. It can be backed up easily. It's based on modern thinking and practices and theaching people another theory when it's more than likely wrong (I just don't see how the world was created in 7 days, maybe God did make all this but not as discribed in the bible) is doing them a dis-service.

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I think however, its such a broad topic it would require a class devoted to the subject.

This is what we had in school, our school was catholic but the religion class was more about morals and being nice it was very Jesus based but no readings from the bible (I'd love to find my old religion books for the craic). It was more or less learning right from wrong, which is why I think kids and teens are exsactly the people who should be learning religion (in the broader sense).

**LiveFreeorDie** · 12-13-2005, 10:40 AM

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evolution is in itself a belief

Evolution is substantiated by signifcant quantities of fossil records, dating techniques, geological science, etc. and is very well supported as far as theories go.

There is no fossil evidence or other scientifc evidence to suggest a fully populated world suddenly popped into existence just a few thousand years ago or that dinosaurs never existed, or other dubious claims made by some religious organizations. To believe those things means you begin to head down a slippery slope of saying scientists falsified data and some massive consipiracy theory has been going on now for 150 years between scientists.

To me there is a HUGE difference between teaching kids about religion(s) in general and pushing a particular belief system. I am all for teaching kids about all sorts of different religions, belief systems, etc - but it should be done with a neutral tone and one should not be placed above another as far as importance goes. What I am STRONGLY against is selecting a particular religion's opinion on a particular subject, like evolution/ID, and then pushing it.

**TheJake** · 12-13-2005, 10:48 AM

I think we have had this discussion before.

Just for sake of referencing a Creation side check out

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

I think if you read it with an open mind, like I have to do when reading about evolution, you will be more than a little surprised at the scientific evidence of creation.

Great thing about archealogy. It's open to interpretation.

Not much unlike a first century Rabbi I know...

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~Mahatma Gandhi

**voyd** · 12-13-2005, 11:10 AM

Micro-evolution (intra-species) has been fairly well-documented, although macro-evolution (inter-species) has not.

But, the Creationist argument that complex things require separate complex Creators only passes the buck and leads to the question, "Well, who created the even infinitely more complex Creator, then?"

And if the answer is no one, it just had created itself or existed over an infinite amount of time - then you could also apply that same argument for everything else to also have formed the same way. So...back to square one.

When faced with such Catch-22 paradoxes, the conflict is usually within the mis-assumptions. In this case, that a Creator must exist separately from his creation, or not at all.

But, perhaps the creation/Creator are one and everything is self-changing on its own...?

**TheJake** · 12-13-2005, 11:33 AM

I find more and more that I care less and less about the arguements.

I have found that I am not smart enough and never will be to argue my line of thought. The best I can do is be objective about it and keep an open mind like my buddy voyd! But on the other I do believe that there is a God in the universe and if I believe that then why not believe creation?

The only thing I know that is undeniable is the "mystical" experiences I have had in my life. Those no one can deny because no one can prove.

So here's what I say. Don't auto throw out creation just because you think it is a falliable theory. There are foundations for both and both have the same facts. It's the glasses you wear to view the facts that change the outcome.

**juliagulia** · 12-13-2005, 06:50 PM

Okay so I realized this a few minutes after i posted the poll that I asked my question wrong... I think therre was already a poll about whether tpunks believe in evolution or not...

what I want to know is: Do you think it should be taught in schools alongside evolution in a Science class?

hope i'm not strinking up a flame war or huge debate type thing...

**LiveFreeorDie** · 12-14-2005, 10:50 AM

So Jake......what makes you believe in the teachings of the Bible over the teachings of the Quran? They should both be given equal weight and consideration as one cannot be 'proven' to be any more right or wrong than the other.....do you agree or disagree with that statement?

And please understand I am not trying to cause a rancorous debate. I respect your beliefs 100% and am more just curious about how you think about certain things.

Another question/comment I have is that the concept of ID is strictly from a Christian perspective, right? So, what about a Muslim perspective? Or a Buddhist perspective? Just curious and if anyone has any knowledge of alternate religious teachings on 'creation' I would love to know what they are.

**TheJake** · 12-14-2005, 11:15 AM

Well since the Islamic faith as according to Mohammed has 5 books, one of which being the Book of Moses aka Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Dueteronomy.

So their creation story is the same.

In answer to your why the Bible over the Qu'ran. That's easy.
Have you read the Qu'ran?

**Rozza** · 12-14-2005, 11:44 AM

i thought that christian, jewish, and islamic creation stories would all be very similar

**TheJake** · 12-14-2005, 11:48 AM

They are very similar BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SAME.

**MeTurk** · 12-15-2005, 03:24 AM

Their are some major flaws with the creator argement. First off it keeps changing to counteract what science proves. The bible said the world was created in 7 days, we find it's not but instead of standing by the 7 days that god said he did it in they say well, um, Gods days last longer than our days. That's arse! And the closer you get to breaking through the bible as fact arguement the more likely they are to stick their fingers in their ears and run away.

The bible was writen by people over time. It was an atempt to explane the world to the best of their abilitys and as such it's good atempt.

Maybe if God did create the universe (does the bible mention the rest of the universe? They did think the world was flat at the time didn't they?) he did it through the big bang he knew the right ingredients and set it iin motion knowing the end result. But, that doesn't change the fact the bible is a work of fiction. Because if you beleive that god made the big bang then you have to believe the science that brought the big bang to everybodys atention which goes against the bibles version of events.

**TheJake** · 12-15-2005, 07:20 AM

MeTurk -

I 100% disagree.

**MeTurk** · 12-15-2005, 09:01 AM

Shocked I am, shocked! Of all people..

**LiveFreeorDie** · 12-15-2005, 09:28 AM

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They are very similar BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SAME.*

So why the ultimate divergence in the major pillars of each religion?

**voyd** · 12-15-2005, 09:51 AM

The funny thing is that Darwin actually started out as a Christian Creationist, before he was forced to gradually accept his own findings from lengthy scientific expeditions around the world (and almost suffering breakdowns in the process).

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studied Anglican theology to become a clergyman and was fully convinced by William Paley's teleological argument that design in nature proved the existence of God. However, his beliefs began to shift during his time on board HMS Beagle.

While on the Beagle Darwin was quite orthodox and would quote the Bible as an authority on morality, but had come to see the history in the Old Testament as being false and untrustworthy.

with the death of his daughter Annie in 1851, Darwin finally lost all faith in Christianity. He continued to give support to the local church and help with parish work, but on Sundays would go for a walk while his family attended church. In later life, when asked about his religious views, he wrote that he had never been an Atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God, and that generally "an Agnostic would be the more correct description of my state of mind."

Funny thing is, I still see many people going thru this very same slow realization process today - 150 years later...

But, do they realize that even the CATHOLIC CHURCH has now come around to supporting him?!

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THE Vatican has issued a stout defence of Charles Darwin, voicing strong criticism of Christian fundamentalists who reject his theory of evolution and interpret the biblical account of creation literally.

**juliagulia** · 12-15-2005, 07:53 PM

Damn it voyd how do you manage to be so smart and know all this information!?!? (is jealous..)

The VATICAN supports DARWIN? Too funny..

that reminds me of a quote i saw on someone's bumper sticker... "God, save us from your followers..."