The great global warming swindle

[micdans]

Originally Posted by Delaney

It really simple. Recycle everything you can, buy stuff in bulk (to save on packaging), get a low flow shower head and water saving toilet. Sign up for renewable energy for the electricity in your home. Encourage your friends to do the same thing. Buy local (think of all the oil that is used to get produce, etc across the country). It's small changes that each person should do that will add up to a big impact.

Interesting thing about the buy local issue.

When shipping food far (across country or even from another country) these company's have created very very efficient means of doing it. Shipping food by boat is insanely resource friendly. The opposing: buying local is great, but not always resource friendly. Think of all the small short trips the farmer has to make, and then bring it to the market. And at many of the markets i've been to, it's the wealthy suburban mothers driving their big SUV's into the city for a fun little trip during the day... (this is all in terms of CO2 emissions)
just a thought and observance.

I used to be all for organic and such until I started looking at the bigger picture. Most of us are in the wealthy countries of the world where food is not an issue, it could be an obsession; trying the highest quality this, making sure everything is organic or whatever. Think about third world countries where food and water is the main drive every day...

I'll quit. Economics is very interesting when looking at the environment and stuff. Not sure if what I wrote even makes sense, I have problems making sense when writing...bleh

[Delaney]

I agree, looking at economics in consideration of the environment is a very interesting thing, something that is nearly impossible to see every little aspect of, I think.

I would have to see your sources about shipping products being environmentally efficient-- I have learned otherwise. And if something is grown in Florida, it isn't going to get to me in Oregon by boat

Oh, I have many issues with organic I don't usually buy that. But I do go to farmer's markets. I have seen the suburban mom selling flowers or baked good but usually the farmers are from rural Oregon just trying to make a living. It's all about product choice. Admittedly though, sometimes its very hard to be accurately informed.

Oh, and you definitely make sense I like talking about this stuff.

[LiveFreeorDie]

Delaney - I want to point out that at the end of my little spiel, I mentioned how I think environmental conservation is very important but that the CO2 hype has allowed focus to be taken away from things that matter MORE, such as clean air and water and as Amber mentioned, renewable energy, which I am a huge proponent of. I am not anti-environment - I am a huge outdoors person. What I am is anti-misinformation and anti-hype. I am also strongly against policies based on bad science and media driven frenzy.

I just want to point out that if you think all scientific research is unbiased and 'pure', I encourage you to do some research on this. The fact is that nearly ALL scientific research today is biased, inherently, because all of it is being funded by one special interest or another. You cannot always take purported 'facts' at face value. That's all.

Good debate and I think at the end of the day we all agree that most aspects of environmental conservation are very, very important.

[raoulduke]

Originally Posted by Delaney

It really simple. Recycle everything you can, buy stuff in bulk (to save on packaging), get a low flow shower head and water saving toilet. Sign up for renewable energy for the electricity in your home. Encourage your friends to do the same thing. Buy local (think of all the oil that is used to get produce, etc across the country). It's small changes that each person should do that will add up to a big impact.

These small changes are good to ease ones guilt about destroying the world but are completely insignificant when compared to the impact that industry has on the environment. An example is that here in Aus we're having a nasty little draught, and while we're all good citizens not washing our cars and watering our gardens with bath water, the BHP mining company uses 35 million litres of water per a day. Multiply this by millions of different corporations around the world and I don't think installing a low flow shower head will save the world.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for making small changes to out lives to save resources it just frustrates me that it makes very little difference.

[Delaney]

Believe me, I know science isn't totally objective. I am about to go to grad school on an NSF grant I wasn't accusing you of being anti-environment, please don't think that. I just get frustrated over "the great global warming debate" when no one can argue that the environment is in dire need of help-- and that we should do something about it rather than argue over the statistics. Although what to do about it is debatable also and I do like discussing it...

And I agree about the media frenzy, but that could be said about nearly every aspect of our culture.

Anyway, good convo

[Delaney]

Originally Posted by raoulduke

These small changes are good to ease ones guilt about destroying the world but are completely insignificant when compared to the impact that industry has on the environment. An example is that here in Aus we're having a nasty little draught, and while we're all good citizens not washing our cars and watering our gardens with bath water, the BHP mining company uses 35 million litres of water per a day. Multiply this by millions of different corporations around the world and I don't think installing a low flow shower head will save the world.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for making small changes to out lives to save resources it just frustrates me that it makes very little difference.

You are right. It's pretty frustrating cause their isn't a lot the average person can do about it. I mean we could always help lobby for governmental changes, pressure big corporations, etc. But really, who knows if that does a thing. I wish we had an answer but who knows what will happen.

[TheJake]

I am only going to say this once, so listen carefully.

There is ALOT that the normal person can do about it. However, most "normal" people would not prefer this method of "fixing" things.

Everyone who cares two cents about the environment should read The Monkey Wrench Gang by Edward Abbey. And then read this book....
http://www.omnipresence.mahost.org/inttxt.htm
Ecodefense.

As a former outdoor education instructor I can tell you that states like Colorado, who doesn't need to conserve water, are way further ahead in the environmental protection game then states like Arizona. Arizona is ridiculous. I hate this state.

Read those books if you kids think you are serious about saving nature. If after reading those books you still think you're serious then give me a ring and we'll do some monkey wrenching....


*notice the date on this*

If a stranger batters your door down with an axe, threatens your family and yourself with deadly weapons, and proceeds to loot your home of whatever he wants, he is committing what is universally recognized-by law and morality *as a crime. In such a situation the householder has both the right and the obli*gation to defend himself, his family, and his property by whatever means are necessary. This right and this obligation is universally recognized, justified and even praised by all civilized human communities. Self-defense against at*tack is one of the basic laws not only of human society but of life itself, not only of human life but of all life.
The American wilderness, what little remains, is now undergoing exactly such an assault. Dave Foreman has summarized the character and scale of the assault in the first chapter of this excellent and essential book. With bull*dozer, earth mover, chainsaw and dynamite the international timber, mining and beef industries are invading our public lands-property of all Americans *bashing their way into our forests, mountains and rangelands and looting them for everything they can get away with. This for the sake of short-term profits in the corporate sector and multi-million dollar annual salaries for the three-piece *suited gangsters (M.B.A., Harvard, Yale, University of Tokyo, et alia) who control and manage these bandit enterprises. Cheered on, naturally, by Time, Newsweek and the Wall Street Journal, actively encouraged by those jellyfish Government agencies which are supposed to protect the public lands, and as always aided and abetted in every way possible by the quisling politicians of our Western states (such as Babbitt, DeConcini, Goldwater, Hatch, Garn, Symms, Hansen, Wallop, Domenici-to name but a few) who would sell the graves of their own mothers if there's a quick buck in the deal, over or under the table, what do they care.
Representative democracy in the United States has broken down. Our legis*lators do not represent those who elected them but rather the minority who fi*nance their political campaigns and who control the organs of communica*tion-the Tee Vee, the newspapers, the billboards, the radio-that have made politics a game for the rich only. Representative government in the USA rep*resents money not people and therefore has forfeited our allegiance and moral support. We owe it nothing but the taxation it extorts from us under threats of seizure of property, or prison, or in some cases already, when resisted, a sud*den and violent death by gunfire.
Such is the nature and structure of the industrial megamachine (in Lewis Mumford's term) which is now attacking the American wilderness. That wilder*ness is our ancestral home, the primordial homeland of all living creatures in*cluding the human, and the present final dwelling place of such noble beings as the grizzly bear, the mountain lion, the eagle and the condor, the moose and the elk and the pronghorn antelope, the redwood tree, the yellowpine, the bristlecone pine, even the aspen, and yes, why not say it?, the streams, wa*terfalls, rivers, the very bedrock itself of our hills, canyons, deserts, moun*tains.
For many of us, perhaps for most of us, the wilderness is as much our home, or a lot more so, than the wretched little stucco boxes, plywood apartments, and wallboard condominiums in which we are mostly confined by the insatiable demands of an overcrowded and ever-expanding industrial culture. And if the wilderness is our true home, and if it is threatened with invasion, pillage and destruction-as it certainly is-then we have the right to defend that home, as we would our private rooms, by whatever means are necessary. (An English*man's home is his castle; an American's home is his favorite fishing stream, 'his favorite mountain range, his favorite desert canyon, his favorite swamp or patch of woods or God-created lake.)
The majority of the American people have demonstrated on every possible occasion that they support the ideal of wilderness preservation; even our politicians are forced by popular opinion to pretend to support the idea; as they have learned, a vote against wilderness is a vote against their own re-election. We are justified in defending our homes-our private home and public home *not only by common law and common morality but also by common belief. We are the majority; they-the greedy and powerful-are the minority.
How best defend our wilderness home? Well, that is a matter of strategy, tactics and technique, which is what this little book is about. Dave Foreman explains the principles of ecological defense in the complete, compact and conclusive pages of his short introduction. I can think of nothing I could add nor of anything I would subtract; he says exactly what needs to be said, no more and no less.
I am happy to endorse the publication of Ecodefense. Never was such a book so needed, by so many, for such good reason, as here and now. Tomor*row might well be too late. This is a book that will fit handily in any saddlebag, in any creel, in any backpack, in any river runner's ammo can-and in any pic*nicker's picnic basket. No good American should ever go into the woods again without this book and, for example, a hammer and a few pounds of 60-penny nails.Spike a few trees now and then whenever you enter an area condemned to chainsaw massacre by Louisiana Pacific and its affiliated subsidiary the U.S. Forest Service. You won't hurt the trees; they'll be grateful for the pro*tection; and you may save the forest. My Aunt Emma back in West Virginia has beenenjoying this pleasant exercise for years. She swears by it. It's good for the trees, it's good for the woods, it's good for the earth, and it's good for the human soul. Spread the word-and carry on!

Edward Abbey
July 1984
Oracle, Arizona


*the year and month I was born*

[joe7f]

There are three main questions regarding global warming

1.) Is it happening?
2.) Is it caused by man?
3.) Is there anything we can do to stop it?

The answer to 1, has to be yes (whether or not it is still happening, or whether our recent history has been an anomaly is still a little bit up in the air). Glaciers that once existed now don't.

Let's say that CO2 does what environmentalists say it does (I'm not necessarily discounting that either), how relevant is man's contribution compared to natural sources and increased solar activity?

The most relevant question to me is "Can we stop it?"

Let's say we are contributing 25% to the problem. If we lowered our emissions to 90% of the current value, what would that do to help the problem? Let's face it, if your house is under water knowing that it was due to a volcano that erupted isn't going to make you feel better. What if we could cut it to 80% of the current value, then what? Lather rinse repeat for 70, 60, and 50%.

I think it will probably be technology will help us adapt.

Interesting discussion

--Joey

[MeTurk]

Let's say we are contributing 25% to the problem.

According to these scientists we're contributing .6%. There is no doubt that the planet is getting warmer but it's not because of us. Earth goes through cycles and there's little we can do about it. There has been a temperature increase in the last 200 years but there's no evidence that it's linked to human activity and the temperature is still lower than it was 400+ years ago, 20 years ago everyone was predicting a new ice age. Most the temperature increase happened before the industrial revolution. It takes 100s of years to affect earths climate we haven't had the chance to do any real damage yet.

We do need to control other pollutants like the chemicals realised from factories and farms they do real damage almost instantly CO2 and global warming is just a distraction. It is good that it's encouraging us to be more efficient and I suppose the mob needs something easy to understand or it won't listen.

Originally Posted by Delaney

Recycle everything you can, buy stuff in bulk (to save on packaging),

When your buying in bulk you're usually buying from large farms that have industrialised farming and don't care at all about the environment. I've done a organic farming course here in Ireland and it's not just about the living conditions of the animals. what kind of chemicals and how often you put them on the land is restricted (old ways of improving the land are encouraged) you have to ensure that wildlife can survive on the land by creating verges. What you can feed the animals is restricted it's a complete change in farming technique. Europe is turning away from industrialised farming and encouraging local small farms as there just better for the environment. There is less travel involved I don't see how driving 20 miles to the local abattoir can be worse for the environment than preserving meat and shipping it halfway across the world.

I've also witnessed first hand how utterly useless wind turbines are. I don't think wind (or solar, or wave) is the solution to our problems they can be part of the solution but are just too inefficient to solve the problem, they take up to much space and cost too much. Biogas makes perfect sense to me, we turn our own shit and waste into gas and fertiliser completely renewable and has a guaranteed supply as long as people eat.