overpopulation and the environment - TravelPUNK Backpacker College Student Budget Travel Message Boards!

**beergal** · 03-04-2006, 02:51 PM

Right now i am meant to be writing an essay for uni:

The freedom to breed will runi all (Hardin 1968). To what extent do you agree with Hardin's contention? what are the implications of Hardin's argument for population policies and sustainable development?

Im finding this essay really interesting from a geographical point of view as well as a traveller. Im just wondering whether as travellers we on the majority respect the environment when we visit another country.

As travellers do you make sure you dispose of your rubbish in the appropriate place?

Do you hire out a car for just 1 person to use?

How do you feel about less economic developed countries...do you think that they outstrip their natural resources...do you wish that they were more industrialised?

**kingcrazylegs** · 03-04-2006, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by beergal1@Mar 4 2006, 02:51 PM
As travellers do you make sure you dispose of your rubbish in the appropriate place?

Yes.

Quote:

Do you hire out a car for just 1 person to use?

No.

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How do you feel about less economic developed countries...do you think that they outstrip their natural resources...do you wish that they were more industrialised?

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I think that "less economic developed countries" are paradise!

mark-0 · 03-05-2006, 09:09 AM

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Originally posted by kingcrazylegs@Mar 4 2006, 07:13 PM
Yes.

No.

I think that "less economic developed countries" are paradise!

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I always try to find recycling where it's available. I don't even have a license so I take the train. I've rented bikes on vacation before too. Riding around Nurnberg was absolutely fantastic.

I think that some less developed countries are still in the stage that the developed world was in (some would say is still in) where they are using too much of their natural resources and are polluting too much. But some aspects of less developed countries are pretty environmentally friendly. I know that in some countries in Africa they are pretty much skipping typical phone lines and going straight to just having cell phones. That way you don't need phone poles and wires all over the place.

**Joker** · 03-05-2006, 09:49 AM

Yes on all the above questions.

Industrialization concentrates population around the cities/factories where there are jobs. Spread people out a bit and it obviously isn't so bad.

As for developing vs. developed countries, the developing countries tend to pollute more since there is less control on those sorts of things. The US as it is currently pollutes a helluva lot less from industry than many, many other countries simply because we have the environmental controls as well as concerns that say, India doesnt have.

**tumblezweedz** · 03-06-2006, 12:38 AM

BG, may I recommend "The Politics of Breastfeeding" by Gabrielle Palmer (Pandora Press, 1988, 90, 91 & 93) for some interesting insight into the issue. Some of the information is quite shocking, but it does give some perspective to the population control issue. As well as some of the social, environmental and economic costs of population control programmes.

As for environmental impact, since we travel in packs, we either fill our own car (6 passengers, with one seat currently free for our bag), take the bus or train. In Vilnius and DC we didn't have a car, instead relying on public transport. Our oldest daughter is an environmental nazi and is horrified if she senses that we are using resources wastefully (this is a product of seeing the traffic jams in DC while she took the public bus to school.)

We have noticed that recycling centres are not generally operated in the developing countries we've been too, which does present us with a dilemma when travelling/living there. However, we've also noticed that at a grassroots level, people in these countries either consume less or recycle at a personal level (rinsing and reusing glass jars, using reuseable shopping bags instead of plastic, buying food at markets where it isn't overpackaged, etc.), as well, people tend to rely on their own power (foot or pedal) for short haul trips, and public transit for longer ones. And of course, in Lithuania and rural Japan (hardly a "less-developed nation") we commonly saw farmers plowing with horse drawn carts, and planting and reaping by hand.

It is also interesting in Lithuania to see the old decaying hulks of the collective farms rotting away as people return to their individual farms. A rejection of the Soviet system. Yet it seems that the individual farmers will have to form together into some sort of cooperative organizations if they are to compete with the large scale producers in other parts of the EU. But that Soviet experience tends to make them a bit leery of "cooperative/collective" efforts... interesting, but perhaps off your topic.

**beergal** · 03-06-2006, 08:48 AM

Thanks for the reccommendations Tamara

I will definately look into that book, can it be as horrifying as meeting Romani women who were forcibly (shall we say) steralized by the Czech governments (absolutely horrifying but widely practised outside of the Romani minority)

I found your comments about the Lithuanian collective farming practises quite interesting and will definately be mentioning this to my European politics lecturer as we have lengthy discussions about my fascination with central and eastern europe, where a recent debate of do i think Turkey should be allowed to join the EU..my response no not until we can sort our own problems out in our own backyard! (a different point and im going off on a tangent!)

It's encouraging to hear that your daughter feels this way about the environment as i dont think enough kids act responsibly (god help my classes when i become a teacher) I remember meeting this guy in Poland who was from England and said he couldnt see the point in recycling HELLO! His response was he soesnt like the smell...ever heard of rinsing the cans out my dear??

How are the recycling methods in Germany? I like the way they recycle their beer bottle etc...another response that could be encouraged here

When i lived in Budapest it was great going to the market to get our shopping daily and the fact that i had to buy a bag especially for this, i even brought the bag back here and still use it for my shopping etc

**tumblezweedz** · 03-06-2006, 09:37 AM

Well, it's a whole different focus - it's more about the marketing of expensive, substandard formulas to poverty-stricken women (instead of teaching them - because the skill is being lost - how to sustain their own babies naturally, with more healthy food, and giving them critical antibodies to boot) for the benefit of the producers. But the issue that would most likely relate to your essay is that population control measures encourage the use of artificial birth control (expensive and difficult to obtain, not to mention the cultural and religious taboos involved in some cases), then encourage women to bottle feed their babies formula. This means women ovulate sooner than they would had they been breast-feeding and are therefore more likely to conceive in less than the usual two to three year period that would otherwise be the case if they breast-fed. (Please note, my kids average between two and three years apart. Breastfed. Coincidence?) That two to three year child-bearing cycle means that children are older and healthier by the time a mother bears another, and can better care for themselves, help around the house (you'd be surprised what a three year old can do), and is more typical of traditional childbearing patterns. Not the one-a-year pattern we often see. Sorry, I'm a bit of a breastfeeding zealot, and this book just made me burn.

The Lithuanian thing is really interesting, because in a lot of ways, the farmers and old timers would like to go back to the Soviet days, because in a way their life was better - they didn't get much, but they did have a guaranteed income, at least. But they do like having their land back, and being able to benefit directly from their own labours. It's an interesting contradiction.

Here in Germany recycling is an art. In every village there is a set of bins for green, white (clear) and brown glass, and for shoes. In the larger towns, next to these are bins for clothing (I think they're Red Cross bins). In addition, we have to separate all our household waste into (roughly) food waste, dry paper and yellow bags (shiny paper, plastic, tins, etc. In our village, our food waste is picked up twice a month, paper and yellow bag recyclables are picked up once a month. So you tend to be very aware of what you use, when you have to store it up for a month! Then too, we have a scrap metal guy that drives through the village periodically, ringing a bell, and he picks up old chairs, appliances, bikes, that kind of thing. It felt a bit like a Monty Python movie the first time we experienced it. "Bring out your dead!" Finally, small producers, like our village beekeeper, ask to have their jars back when you finish the honey, so they can reuse them. Our landlord works for Bitburger and gives us crates of beer etc from time to time, but we have to give him back the empties when they're done. So I guess the brewery recycles them, too.

**beergal** · 03-06-2006, 09:50 AM

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Then too, we have a scrap metal guy that drives through the village periodically, ringing a bell, and he picks up old chairs, appliances, bikes, that kind of thing. It felt a bit like a Monty Python movie the first time we experienced it. "Bring out your dead!" Finally, small producers, like our village beekeeper, ask to have their jars back when you finish the honey, so they can reuse them. Our landlord works for Bitburger and gives us crates of beer etc from time to time, but we have to give him back the empties when they're done. So I guess the brewery recycles them, too.

Oh my god i just had memories of my first day in Budapest when we were walking through our neighbourhood in a lovely part of Buda but there was all of this paper, suitcases, furniture etc all over the streets in piles ha ha i didnt realise they also have the same system to the following month when it happened again!

**kingcrazylegs** · 03-06-2006, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Joker@Mar 5 2006, 09:49 AM
Yes on all the above questions.

Industrialization concentrates population around the cities/factories where there are jobs. Spread people out a bit and it obviously isn't so bad.

As for developing vs. developed countries, the developing countries tend to pollute more since there is less control on those sorts of things. The US as it is currently pollutes a helluva lot less from industry than many, many other countries simply because we have the environmental controls as well as concerns that say, India doesnt have.

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I think this is true as regards some of the large developing countries, but is it true in general for developing countries? Many of the smaller developing countries in Central & South America (maybe Africa?) have very little industry and don't really have a means to pollute. Not only that, but the ration to cars to people is MUCH less than in most developed countries. No?

All I'm saying is that its a growing effect. As countries become more and more "developed" there becomes a great need to have the environmental controls because they produce more crap.

mark-0 · 03-06-2006, 11:26 AM

It's also a matter of what technology is available. When North America and Western Europe were undergoing the process of industrialization there was nowhere near the kind of energy saving/lower pollution technology that is available today. Yes, developing countries don't have a lot of money to spend on this technology, but I'm sure that there are really cheap and energy/pollution efficient technologies out there that weren't around during the Western world's Industrial Revolution.

**beergal** · 03-06-2006, 11:41 AM

i have been doing this research on New Zealand and have been reading some interesting government reports where they say they have to increase their population because of the effect on the economy and the so called "brain drain" and that how migrants tend to centralise themselves in one area...Auckland

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As for developing vs. developed countries, the developing countries tend to pollute more since there is less control on those sorts of things

From a European perspective who work with developing countries apart of the Contenau agreement this isnt the case. Part of the stipulents of investment and production that it has to be through cleaner technologies because of their commitments to Kyoto and the EU-ETS (European Union Emissions Trading Scheme)

**Joker** · 03-06-2006, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kingcrazylegs@Mar 6 2006, 12:11 PM
I think this is true as regards some of the large developing countries, but is it true in general for developing countries?* Many of the smaller developing countries in Central & South America (maybe Africa?) have very little industry and don't really have a means to pollute.* Not only that, but the ration to cars to people is MUCH less than in most developed countries.* No?

I would argue that Central American and even South American countries are a bit better off in terms of level of development because of the huge market that the Canadian and American end of the world offers. Granted this was not always the case (google Banana Republics), but considering that the US and Canada are in constant need of fresh veggies, fruits, coffees, etc, as well as oil (Venezuela, etc), sugar, and so on, there is more $$ for development and thus a higher standard of living in many respects as opposed to, say, SE Asia or Africa. Personally, I refer to the Asian and African countries more so in my statement than Central and South America.

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All I'm saying is that its a growing effect.* As countries become more and more "developed" there becomes a great need to have the environmental controls because they produce more crap.

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Absolutely. 100 years, even 50 years ago, we didn't know the effects of industrialization upon the environment as a whole. Now, we do. And we attempt to police ourselves in the global community to maintain certain standards. However, it is not applied universally. One of the world's largest polluters is China. But nobody sees any massive outcry to force them to toe the line.

Kyoto, however, forces some rediculously stringent restrictions upon more advanced countries, yet allows "developing" countries to continue at current levels for some time. If Kyoto was a sound accord, it would attempt to assist "developing" countries to gain access to cleaner methods of manufacturing, etc, and thus eliminate a problem. Essentially what I'm saying is that if you tell me my dog can't shit on the lawn, but the guy next door or across the street can because I've had my dog for 5 years and they just got their's, I'm going to cry foul.

**tumblezweedz** · 03-06-2006, 11:41 PM

On the industrialization note, even in the developing world urbanization remains a problem, and the influx of country dwellers to the cities results in horrible tenements and shanty towns with insufficient sanitation and other services which does create environmental problems. Consider Mexico City... Also, BBC has been running some programmes recently on urbanization in China, and also in some parts of Africa.

In Lithuania, a lot of the young people are abandoning the farms in the countryside because unemployment there is nearing 20% while in Vilnius there is a much lower rate and a better income available to those who can find work. So it's urbanization all over again, and as a result, the country is not raising as much food as it was, reducing exports and possibly creating the need for imports... Still a problem, then, even within the EU.

**Joker** · 03-06-2006, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tumblezweedz@Mar 7 2006, 12:41 AM
So it's urbanization all over again, and as a result, the country is not raising as much food as it was, reducing exports and possibly creating the need for imports...* Still a problem, then, even within the EU.

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I was gonna say, I thought the EU was having a massive problem with former Warsaw Bloc citizens emigrating to the towns in search of jobs, etc. It seems to be something the bureauocracy didn't anticipate when establishing certain key economic policy...

**bluepea** · 03-07-2006, 06:46 AM

Quote:

As travellers do you make sure you dispose of your rubbish in the appropriate place?

Do you hire out a car for just 1 person to use?

How do you feel about less economic developed countries...do you think that they outstrip their natural resources...do you wish that they were more industrialised?

Yes. Now. I haven't always been good about it, but I've matured a lot. Unfortunately, we don't recycle anymore since moving to Chicago. Our landlord doesn't have it appropriately set up. I hope that once we get a little more settled, we can set it up for ourselves.

No, not when traveling.

But, even living in the city, Jake and I both have vehicles (sedans, gas efficient). We weren't planning on buying a 2nd one for awhile, since I was just planning on going to school, but when I decided I wanted to work, it really came down to me needing a car. Jake works in the suburbs and as a consultant, travels a lot around the area, so he also needs a car.

I can't say I wish anyplace was more industrialized - it's not really for me to decide.

**expatben** · 05-20-2006, 01:38 AM

Yeah I try and recycle. When I travel how much I recycle depends on what country I am in. In Germany which is very green it is easier to recycle and I do it more. In other countries its harder and I don't.

JeanB · 05-20-2006, 01:58 AM

You might want to start by mentioning Malthus. He was the first to state that populations grow much faster than our ability to farm or develop economically. Really all work on population growth will make at least a passing remark about him at some point.

Obviously mentioning China with its unique population policies is a must.

I'm sure you'll make a great job of it, cause it sounds really interesting.

**beergal** · 05-20-2006, 06:29 AM

well i have already done it but thanks for the info and guess what i did include Malthus and China as well as New Zealand

**voyd** · 05-20-2006, 09:54 AM

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Originally posted by JeanB@May 20 2006, 02:58 AM
Obviously mentioning China with its unique population policies is a must.
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I think this issue is much larger than not littering, recycling and such...

Harsh reality is our global population has gone exponential within the last few decades. And this is really what's driving all the habitat loss and resource depletion. As well as genetic modification of microorganisms, etc that is spawning some truly frightening designer svperbugs!

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During the 1990s, some Sierra Club members wanted to take the Club into the contentious field of immigration to the United States. The Club's position was that overpopulation was a significant factor in the degradation of the environment. Accordingly, the Club supported stabilizing and reducing U.S. and world population. Some members argued that, as a practical matter, U.S. population could not be stabilized, let alone reduced, at the then-current levels of immigration. They urged the Club to support immigration reduction. Other Sierrans, however, thought that the immigration issue was too far from the Club's core mission, and were also concerned that involvement would impair the organization's political ability to pursue its other objectives. The Board of Directors accepted this latter view, and voted, in 1996, that the Sierra Club would be neutral on issues of immigration.

The advocates of immigration reduction sought to reverse this decision by using the referendum provision of the Bylaws of the Sierra Club. They organized themselves as "SUSPS", a name originally derived from "Sierrans for U.S. Population Stabilization" (although that name is no longer used since the Sierra Club objected to infringing the Club's trademark in the term "Sierrans"). SUSPS and its allies gathered the necessary signatures to place the issue on the ballot in the Club's election in the spring of 1998. The Board's decision that the Club would take no position on immigration was upheld by the membership by a three-to-two margin, although SUSPS complained that the ballot had been structured in an unfair and confusing manner.

Bottom line is - modern humans are undeniably at the root of environmental destruction - and therefore, the more humans, the more destruction...no matter how you cut it. The only way around that would be if we all returned to extremely natural living like the natives did...but I don't see that realistically happening.

**juliagulia** · 06-13-2006, 10:00 PM

damn, im pretty sheltered i guess. i thought recycling was a lot more common than it is apparantly. i'm pretty sure here in good ol' columbia its requiered to recycle (at least... everyone DOES. every house ive ever been to in columbia has had a trash can and a separate bin for recycling... and then you have to separate paper and plastics/tin...)

its just become habit at home, so i'm guessing that once i travel extensively it would just be natural for me to ask "where's the recycle bin?"