mowark

Since no one on this site ever reads long post (myself included) I thought I would repost the most important paragraph from my above post.

In the landmark decision of Texas v. Johnson (1989) that overturned anti flag buring laws Justice Brennan wrote: "If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable." He later says the "constitutionally guaranteed freedom to be intellectually diverse or even contrary and the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order encompass the freedom to express publicly one's opinions about our flag, including those opinions which are defiant or contemptuous."

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Treat your mind like a bad neighborhood - don't go there alone. Anonymous

LiveFreeorDie

Interesting discussion. I would say I am as patriotic an American as anyone (and probably more to the right then many people on here (which has led me to blather on in argument against some of the canucks on more than on occassion in the various political arguments that have cropped up, ha, ha!). and cheers to all of them BTW as I love debates.

However, on this issue, I take a very firm stand that there SHOULD NOT be an amendment banning flag burning. Our country, and this flag stand for FREEDOM. That means no matter how much a particular thought, action, statement or demonstration may piss me off, I do not have a right to censor that action or statement as long as it is not interfering with my own freedom to live life, have my own beliefs, etc. etc.

Say an amendment gets passed....what is next? No one can make fun of Bush anymore? Putting little pictures of Bush on a flag and sticking the flags in dog shit will be banned? Maybe newspapers that are overly critical of our government will start having pressure put on them to get in line?

I do not believe in ANY limitations on people's freedom of speech...PERIOD. Does a flag being burned offend me....yes. Do I have the right to censor that person's beliefs AND their right to demonstrate/publicize their beliefs...no matter how different they are from my own? No.

THAT, my friends, is the first step towards a fascist society. That is not what this country is about and the mere concept of such an amendment makes me sick. Anyone who prattles on about being offended by flag burning (and uses it as a justification for the amendment) ought to think a little bit more about what it REALLY means to live in a free society. You need to take the good with the bad and recognize that the beauty of our society is that EVERYONE has a voice, not just the folks currently in power or just the "majority". This means we have to allow the voice of the KKK, the Aryan Supremacy Groups, Louis Farrakhan, Martin Luther King and JFK...all in one country......pretty cool. You have the choice to listen and watch, or not listen and watch. No one should have the choice to stifle someone else's beliefs.

P.S. Aren't there more pressing societal issues for our pols to be dealing with other than flag burning???? Give me a fucking break.

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\\Jamie\\



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

"The plural of anecdote is not data"

mowark

Right on livefree. You said it about as good as it could be said.

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space virgin

LFoD:

Mowark: I read long posts (including yours.)

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TimmyJames1976

yes...LFoD well said


and this sort of fits...

Some folks are born made to wave the flag,
ooh, they're red, white and blue.
And when the band plays "Hail To The Chief",
oh, they point the cannon at you, Lord,

It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no senator's son,
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate one, no,

Some folks are born silver spoon in hand,
Lord, don't they help themselves, oh.
But when the taxman come to the door,
Lord, the house look a like a rummage sale, yes,

It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no millionaire's son.
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate one, no.

Yeh, some folks inherit star spangled eyes,
ooh, they send you down to war, Lord,
And when you ask them, how much should we give,
oh, they only answer, more, more, more, yoh,

It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no military son,
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate one,

It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate one, no no no,
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate son, no no no,

- John C, Fogerty

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afterlife3

I have a question, how many of you have the desire to burn an American flag or have burned one before? Hopefully no one. I agree that an amendment should not be passed, for I see the 1st amendment being affected. I do, however, feel that you should not get to a point to where you feel you need to burn a flag. do something else, something more productive something, I mean you should feel guilty for burning something that represents where you live, sure you may not love it on the outside, but I am sure that in the inside you love this place. Would you destroy something you hold close or something that represents you?

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"The enormity of our endeavor excaped us in those moments; all we could see was the dust on the road ahead and ourselves on the bike, devouring kilometers in our flight northward."- Ernesto Che Guevara

The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -St. Augustine

http://www.travelpunk.com/boards/index.php..._album&album=14

space virgin

I don't think anyone here is saying that they have or that they want to. I personally have never met anyone that has done or wanted to do any flag burning. It was all the rage among serious protesters a while ago when this was being fought out BEFORE. And now that it's being trotted out AGAIN, you just know that somebody's going to take the opportunity to do it-- when they probably didn't even think of it until this came up. AGAIN.

Seems like someone apparently thought that there was a lull in the divisive-issues campaign (gay marriage, Terri Schiavo, the war in Iraq... oh wait, too many people are starting to agree about that now!) and decided to drag this back up to the surface. Maybe I'm just too much of a conspiracy theorist.

Besides the fact that no one here has said that they WANT to burn a flag, personally I can think of a lot more important things that people should feel guilty about. How much time ya got, because it's an awfully long list...

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LaurieL622

If I did that, I'd do hard time because it's an endangered species...a living, feeling entity that's been wiped out by our selfishness...not b/c it's some inanimate patriotic symbol.

And for anyone who thinks that a little constructive criticism should be met with jail time or banishment from the country...

With greatness comes the responsibility to recognize flaws and injustice…not in others but within yourself (or within a country).

I don’t hate anything. I only have love and understanding for all (a little less love and understanding for some ). Patriotism is mental slavery. My love and devotion for something won’t be defined by a word….and it’s ALWAYS conditional.






one more thing...gay marriages should be legalized. now quit your whining and mind your own business.

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"Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others." – Buddha

kingcrazylegs

Nope. The flag is simply meant to be a symbol of "liberty and justice for all". Someone burning the flag is equally a symbolic gesture. Banning people from making such a symbolic gesture goes against "liberty and justice for all".

You said it sister! I think pushing patriotism is like pushing religion...

---> Voyd

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all that is not given is lost

TimmyJames1976

Odd statement coming from someone who has a Che Guevara quote in their signature. I have not burned a flag, but I see why some do. Also, if the flag is a symbol of todays America with the current governing body, then is DOES NOT represent me. I did not vote Bush. I do not agree with his or extreme right wing ideals. I am only American because I was born here. I think this goes for the majority of U.S. citizens, although many don't want to realize this idea.

On on another note, does anyone see this as more anti-muslim legislation?

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kingcrazylegs

You go girl!

And burn those panties! Woo hoo!



No doubt!

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all that is not given is lost

mowark

I'm glad to hear it. While only my last paragraph was original insight, I think that many of our Supreme Court Justices through out history have been some of the most eloquent defenders of freedom this country has ever had (with a few glaring exceptions (Dred Scott decision)). I especially love Justice Jackson's quote. Those guys, and gals, know their stuff. I really appreciate their wisdom when it crosses the ideological rift. I don't know how many of you know much about today's court, but Scalia is considered one of the most conservative Justices on the bench today. The fact that he supports Americans right to burn whatever symbols they want as a form of political protest speaks volumes.

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bellelass

well well, there was trouble and discord and somehow I missed it.

Fuck the question, our government is getting too damn uppity about telling us what we can and can not do, the bastards. And anyway, flag burning is so Iranian revolution circa 1970's. How passe.

I'm going to join laura in the panty burning.

edited to add:
I want to burn a flag. There. Its out there.

I'm going back to panty burning...

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"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did."
-T.E. Lawrence, Seven Pillars of Wisdom

kingcrazylegs

Oh, and btw, nice avatar!

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all that is not given is lost

xanthuos

No kidding, SV. With the comments by Karl Rove yesterday and the coincidal release of those talking points from the Republican party, I think this is exactly what you say - a diversion.

Bush's approval rating was recently polled at 42%. 42%! I'm sorry, perhaps (this time around) he was actually justly elected...but 10% LESS of the population than elected him approve of the job he's doing now. You can't paint that with a partisan brush...even Republicans are starting to break ranks. Just look at the crap with the PATRIOT act...in a Republican-controlled house, the White House still couldn't get full renewal for all sections of the PATRIOT act. Not that it matters, because the Republican leadership has said they'll remove the amendments in the Republican-controlled committee. Everyone remember the big stink over Democrats fillibustering Bush's judicial nominees? When the Republicans controlled Congress while Clinton was in the White House, they fillibustered an even higher percentage of HIS judicial nominees. None of the Republicans want to acknowledge that, however.

Anyways, back to the flag-burning issue. I'm still incensed, but I realize that nobody on this board is going to change their mind anyways, even if I have a well-reasoned and eloquent post.

Voltaire said it best with "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." I would never burn the American flag in protest. I'll be the first one, however, fighting for the right of my neighbor to do so.

There are limits to free speech, yes. I can't yell "BOMB" on an airplane. I can't tell someone I'm going to kill them. To some extent, I cannot expose myself in public or display "pornography" (though I tend to disagree with these limitations ).

I can, however, tell people that I think blacks are an inferior race. I can say that they shouldn't allow any more wetbacks into this country. I can tell them that the Pol Pot was a great man. I can tell them women are fit for nothing more than doing housework and cooking for me...oh, and f*cking.

Hopefully, somebody's blood boiled when they read those statements. If I was on the receiving end of such statements, my blood would boil as well. However, the first thought into my mind wouldn't be about banning the very speech that was making my blood boil. To be able to read what you want, watch what you want on TV, speak your mind and criticize the things you disagree with, you've got to be willing to accept a crazy guy on a street corner with a megaphone, spouting hatred that you vehemently disagree with. You've got to be willing to accept that the corner store will be selling dirty mags, whether you like it or not. Most of all, you've got to be willing to accept it when someone criticizes the President, the Congress, the military, the government in general. That is the most patriotic thing a person can do...question the actions of the government. A way of doing so in burning the flag - or rather, I should say a cloth object. IT IS AN OBJECT. The ideals it represents are indestructable (as much as Bush tries!), the rights it stands for are unalienable.

There's all this bullshit rhetoric about the terrorists hating our way of life, hating our freedoms. One of the biggest "fuck yous" that you can deal the terrorists is when you see the US flag burning in protest, you just say "Well, it's a free country." They're burning the flag to piss us off. It'd take the wind out of their sails (to simplify it) if we just said "Go ahead, do it if you want. We don't care." THAT, my friends, is freedom.

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Matthew

mowark

X, you just about brought a tear to my eye. I don't say it much, but God Bless America. And God Bless our freedom to say whatever the hell we want.

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Treat your mind like a bad neighborhood - don't go there alone. Anonymous

TimmyJames1976

u just stopped my head from exploding......i was looking for that quote and could not for the life of me remeber who said it!

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juliagulia

I think its disrespectful since it means so much to the country... like, if you came up to me and burned a cloth that i had hanging around somewhere in my house, no big deal right? But the value it had (like... my grandmother who died while saving my dog from gettin hit by a bus gave it to me while on her deathbed) makes it disrespectful to burn it... does that make sense?

While I find it dumb that they would pass a law protecting a piece of cloth with stars and stripes on it... obviously it means something to the country... so don't burn it simply out of respect.

I'm a v. two-sided person...

So... I don't think they should pass that law... But I don't think that means we should run around burning the flag... If you want to show disrespect... go right ahead. It seems to tee some people off a bit so looks like it'd work.

I personally don't care for the flag... It's a piece of cloth... But respect is something I really care about... Esp. respect for anyone's constitutional right for Freedom of Speech... verbal or not.

Personally I think that this whole thing is being done since they're trying to get attention away from Iraq abd alleviate tension Americans are having b/c of it...

Gay Marriage should be legalized...

-Jullia

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Living In: Belfast, Northern Ireland


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afterlife3

Hey TJ, just because I have a quote that was in the Motorcycle Diaries movie doesnt mean I follow him. I picked that quote because it is about travel and discovering yourself. And JuliaGulia, thank you for saying better what I was trying to say.

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"The enormity of our endeavor excaped us in those moments; all we could see was the dust on the road ahead and ourselves on the bike, devouring kilometers in our flight northward."- Ernesto Che Guevara

The world is a book and those who do not travel read only a page. -St. Augustine

http://www.travelpunk.com/boards/index.php..._album&album=14

IDDQD

Was I the only one that laughed when zach delarocha burned the flag on Saturday Night Live?

Somethin about it, tickled me just so.
I think it was the out right balls to do it that got me.
Thats some big brass balls.

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It's always funny until someone gets hurt...

....And then it's just hilarious