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Old 05-23-2008, 10:10 AM   #41
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I don't like the idea of bigger citys, I think that's the hole problem in fact. I think for the most part city folk are to far removed from nature and the daily facts of nature to appreciate just how essential our environment is to our survival. Big citys are a big drain on the world. You also have country folk all over the world working themselfs into poverty to supply big citys with cheap food. This is happening to farmers all over the world including in Ireland (a farming stronghold for millenia) and America.

I don't mind building large citys but I think nature needs to be brought into them and more effort should be made to build proper communities within citys.
The thing is that living in a city is much more efficient than living in a rural area. People living in rural areas, provided they live the same lifestyle as one in a city, will consume more than said urban person. This mainly comes down to transportation - both individual transport, or how products and agricultural products get to you.

You can also think of it this way: what do you think consumes more energy and resources per capita? 200 people living in an apartment building (shared infrastructure, less space, etc) or 200 people living in 50 rural houses? Not to mention that one of the biggest benefits of living in a city is proximity to things. When it comes down to it, economics drives the choices that are made.... Ideally, if something is an economically smart decision - it will be a sustainably-smart decision.... AKA resources are expensive, which is why people live in urban centers moreso than rural. Consuming less is cheaper, and better for the environment.

What we are seeing a lot in North America is urban sprawl. Everyone wants a 'piece of the country' by living in the suburbs (shudders), and so cities are sprawling and sprawling. This means people are using more resources per capita (big yards, bigger houses that consume more energy) while at the same time - reducing the greenspace (fields that provide food, forests that clean the air and house biodiversity).

But I do agree with you that everyone is removed from the effects of their impact on the environment. Chances are most people on these boards are from a 1st world, western-developed country, where our externalities are exported to 3rd world or manufacturing countries. We don't see a lot of the effects because we are removed by thousands of KM's from the consequences (battery manufacturing in Chine where entire rivers are unusable due to toxic waste, mass deforestation in South America where cattle is bred for western consumption, etc).


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The price of oil will never come down again no matter what new sources we find.
Agreed. This is a fact, it may dip and hit a few valleys, but the upward trend is near exponential. We have passed peak oil - officially we have used more oil in our history than there is left in the earth. The oil we have used has been of the beautiful-bullion kind that is straight up pumped out of Texas or Saudi Arabia. The stuff that is left is mixed with soil in Alberta, or thousands of meters deep in the ocean. Not exactly easy to extract (which means extremely hard on the environment to extract, plus extremely expensive to consumer). Plus factor in increasingly exponential consumption too. Supply = down, demand = up.


Anyways, if you can't tell already - I am passionate about these topics. Just don't get me started !
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Old 05-23-2008, 02:13 PM   #42
 
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There are kits on the internet that 'claim' to give 45% more efficiency for a mixture of vinegar and distilled water. But who knows if these kits are legit.

Granted I was listening to Coast to Coast AM with George Noory and a truck driver claimed he went from 4.5mpg to 10mpg with a hydrogen kit.

So we could be closer than you think.
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Old 05-23-2008, 02:16 PM   #43
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Just a small interruption in the deep talk to say that my Toyota was on empty and I filled it up completely yesterday at 3.81/gal for $58 and I am sick.

I'm not leaving the apartment all weekend!
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Old 05-23-2008, 02:28 PM   #44
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We need to legalize HEMP and grow our own oil!
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Old 05-24-2008, 11:48 AM   #45
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I think finding easier ways to extract oil is just finding a quick fix. Even if we find a huge reserve that keeps gas at the current (or at a slightly cheaper) price, eventually, that oil will run out. We will be back at square one, looking for new ways to extract oil and going through all this again.

It's expensive, but find new ways to sustain our energy consumption! Wind, solar, ocean currents... I don't care! I want to be 50 and not have to worry if oil prices will rocket and if that means I won't be able to afford to drive to work.

This issue of Colbert's the word just makes me so happy that I'm not alone in some of these things :http://www.comedycentral.com/colbert...videoId=167579
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Old 05-24-2008, 12:16 PM   #46
 
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i just paid 3.95 for regular here in colorado. but i have the feeling that 4 dollars is just a skip away lol
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Old 05-28-2008, 04:56 AM   #47
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it's about 5.50 a gallon here. cost me just over 90 bucks to fill my jeep.
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Old 05-28-2008, 07:47 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by MeTurk View Post
I don't like the idea of bigger citys, I think that's the hole problem in fact. I think for the most part city folk are to far removed from nature and the daily facts of nature to appreciate just how essential our environment is to our survival. Big citys are a big drain on the world. You also have country folk all over the world working themselfs into poverty to supply big citys with cheap food. This is happening to farmers all over the world including in Ireland (a farming stronghold for millenia) and America.

I don't mind building large citys but I think nature needs to be brought into them and more effort should be made to build proper communities within citys.


The price of oil will never come down again no matter what new sources we find.
You'd actually be surprised at how much more energy efficient it is to live in cities than it is to live in the suburbs or in small towns, unless you're a hermit and live in the woods in a log cabin with no electricity. Fact is, since cities are so condensed, it makes it much easier to be efficient with transportation, heating, cooling, etc. I recently read in Wired that Manhattan is something like 90% more energy efficient than suburbs and towns in the U.S.
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Old 05-28-2008, 11:30 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by snowball1982 View Post
The thing is that living in a city is much more efficient than living in a rural area. People living in rural areas, provided they live the same lifestyle as one in a city, will consume more than said urban person. This mainly comes down to transportation - both individual transport, or how products and agricultural products get to you.

You can also think of it this way: what do you think consumes more energy and resources per capita? 200 people living in an apartment building (shared infrastructure, less space, etc) or 200 people living in 50 rural houses? Not to mention that one of the biggest benefits of living in a city is proximity to things. When it comes down to it, economics drives the choices that are made.... Ideally, if something is an economically smart decision - it will be a sustainably-smart decision.... AKA resources are expensive, which is why people live in urban centers moreso than rural. Consuming less is cheaper, and better for the environment.

What we are seeing a lot in North America is urban sprawl. Everyone wants a 'piece of the country' by living in the suburbs (shudders), and so cities are sprawling and sprawling. This means people are using more resources per capita (big yards, bigger houses that consume more energy) while at the same time - reducing the greenspace (fields that provide food, forests that clean the air and house biodiversity).

But I do agree with you that everyone is removed from the effects of their impact on the environment. Chances are most people on these boards are from a 1st world, western-developed country, where our externalities are exported to 3rd world or manufacturing countries. We don't see a lot of the effects because we are removed by thousands of KM's from the consequences (battery manufacturing in Chine where entire rivers are unusable due to toxic waste, mass deforestation in South America where cattle is bred for western consumption, etc).




Agreed. This is a fact, it may dip and hit a few valleys, but the upward trend is near exponential. We have passed peak oil - officially we have used more oil in our history than there is left in the earth. The oil we have used has been of the beautiful-bullion kind that is straight up pumped out of Texas or Saudi Arabia. The stuff that is left is mixed with soil in Alberta, or thousands of meters deep in the ocean. Not exactly easy to extract (which means extremely hard on the environment to extract, plus extremely expensive to consumer). Plus factor in increasingly exponential consumption too. Supply = down, demand = up.


Anyways, if you can't tell already - I am passionate about these topics. Just don't get me started !
I agree with most of what you say here but one of the things that needs to be thought about is that our own carbon footprint, as they call it, is not limited to our own usage. One of the reasons that living in an urban area is more efficient when it comes to resource usage is because everything is closer than an rural setting. Problem with that logic is that the reason everything is closer is because all those normal, spread out resources are brought in to the city. That has a decent sized footprint on its own.

I'm not trying to say anything specific with this but the point is that there's always something..... that's the problem with relying in oil. If things were electric or hydrogen-based, the difference between rural and urban efficiency wouldn't be an issue.

Who knows how this'll turn out but it should be interesting.
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Old 05-29-2008, 04:19 AM   #50
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You'd actually be surprised at how much more energy efficient it is to live in cities than it is to live in the suburbs or in small towns, unless you're a hermit and live in the woods in a log cabin with no electricity. Fact is, since cities are so condensed, it makes it much easier to be efficient with transportation, heating, cooling, etc. I recently read in Wired that Manhattan is something like 90% more energy efficient than suburbs and towns in the U.S.
There are new types of towns though. If we started using bio fuels properly I'm sure a smallish town well planed could generate enough electricity for itself. In place like Sweden they are making hole towns that are carbon neutral with a big emphasis on healthy living too, things like no cars allowed into the town.

With small towns you don't have the huge pollution problems, everything's spread out in manageable amounts.

I just don't think humans are designed to live in such massive colonies.
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Old 05-29-2008, 09:41 AM   #51
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There are new types of towns though. If we started using bio fuels properly I'm sure a smallish town well planed could generate enough electricity for itself. In place like Sweden they are making hole towns that are carbon neutral with a big emphasis on healthy living too, things like no cars allowed into the town.

With small towns you don't have the huge pollution problems, everything's spread out in manageable amounts.

I just don't think humans are designed to live in such massive colonies.
I don't want to go into my usual rant on biofuels, but in a lot of cases they are just as harmful, if not more, to the environment than oil. Massive amounts of land are needed to create biofuels, which in turn means cutting down forests releasing massive amounts of CO2. Nuclear is the way to go. 98% cleaner than oil and coal.

And if humans had never banned together and started working together in larger collective environments, we'd still be in the stoneage. I don't know about you, but I enjoy electricity, plumbing, and refridgeration.
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Old 05-29-2008, 10:36 AM   #52
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There are many ways of getting different types of biofuel. There isn't one super fuel that can do everything but different sources can be used in different ways. Methane made from our own shit would be perfect fuel our domestic needs while plants could be used solely to fuel our cars.

I'm not against large community's. I'm just against having tens of thousands of people crammed into a very small area. You can have towns within citys.

The gigantic cities of today are colossal compared to the most progressive of cities in the past.
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Old 06-09-2008, 10:39 AM   #53
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So I came back from africa and I found that Gas had jumped up THIRTY CENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ! It is now 1.34/L WTF?
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Old 06-09-2008, 10:56 AM   #54
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^sick burn man! I felt that way when I got back from Afghanistan... when I left gas was like 2 dollars and something and I came back and now it's over 4 in some places? WTF.
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Old 06-09-2008, 12:36 PM   #55
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Just filled up for 4.17 a gallon here in PHX. That's for the 87 stuff too!
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Old 06-09-2008, 02:28 PM   #56
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It was 4.03 for 87 this morning. I had to get my bicycle fix today.
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Old 06-17-2008, 05:16 PM   #57
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4.06 for 87 grade .... 4.25 for 89 ... and 4.39 for 93...

I think I am selling my car and investing in a moped ladies and gents.. lol
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Old 06-17-2008, 08:28 PM   #58
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4.06 for 87 grade .... 4.25 for 89 ... and 4.39 for 93...

I think I am selling my car and investing in a moped ladies and gents.. lol
I would love to do that, but the lady won't have it .


$5.10 gallon yesterday for 91.
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Old 06-17-2008, 08:56 PM   #59
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I just came across this article Scientists find bugs that excrete waste and excrete petrol. I don't drive so the gas prices are not directly affecting me, but of course indirectly it affects almost everything so I hope this pans out.
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Old 06-18-2008, 08:28 AM   #60
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I just came across this article Scientists find bugs that excrete waste and excrete petrol. I don't drive so the gas prices are not directly affecting me, but of course indirectly it affects almost everything so I hope this pans out.
Heard about them guys just the other day. Necessity is the mother of all invention. Wouldn't it be awful if we do manage a workaround and continue to destroy our planet regardless. It seems like every cap nature attempts to put on us is shattered with a little effort and bright ideas.

Diesel is up to €1.47 per litre in the west of Ireland. That's not even city prices where it's usually a bit higher, I wouldn't be surprised if it's €1.60 in other places. It's causing allot of problems with transporting using trucks. Truck drivers and fishermen are all on strike throughout Europe saying they can't afford to pay it.
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Last edited by MeTurk; 06-18-2008 at 08:33 AM.
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