Just for the heck of it, I am interested to see how religious people are on this board. I am hoping people are not offended by this as I am not looking to make a statement for or against religion or an individual's beliefs - I respect all individual beliefs. I am just curious where the various T-Punkers fall out.

BTW - please substitute "temple" or other place of worship for church (including your own home). Since you have to keep the item to one line only, I couldn't adequately lable the choices.

We hadn't had a poll in awhile, so I thought one was due!

For the record, I am essentially non-religious.

I chose non-religious...but there should be an option for people who practice beliefs in a non-religious sense.

I am not religious at all. Growing up my mom let us make our own decisions about religion. In a couple of communities where we lived, going to church was the "thing to do", so as kids my brother and I attended some church services with neighbors or friends. But we noticed that mom didn't go with us and pretty soon started questioning everything, haha. (This also made her the social pariah in those communities but she didn't care. Being a bartender at the local pub and the only single mother in the area probably made it worse, lol. Ah, the 80's.)

I prefer the classification of agnostic as opposed to "atheist". It seems that many people who describe themselves as "atheist" take their atheism just as seriously, if not more so in many cases as religious people take their religion (regardless of type). :rolleyes:

I think Marx was right about religion. I think religion is not a desirable part of what God wanted for his people. I do not go to church, at least not very often, but I know my bible back and forwards and I believe in God.

You put "Extremely" as attending church 2 or 3 times/month??? Wow...
To me "extremely religious" means going to church once a day, not every two weeks (and yes, I do know people like that).

I am religious, I go to church once a week, but I'm not a zealot or a religious nut either. Actually part of my excursion to Europe encompasses the World Youth Day in Cologne, Germany and I'm looking foreward to it. Any place where there will be 800000-1000000 young people has to be a party!

I chose minimal...I try to go to church on Easter and Christmas. As far as organized religion goes that is about how it goes for me. But I am more spiritual I think, wheras I have my own personal beliefs in God and will pray occasionally if I am struggling with something.

My way of thinking changes too much to attend organized churches. I just don't fit in very well.

Just for reference sake....
An old tpunk religious discussion from my "Ok Kids" days...

oh and just for reference you might classify me as religious since I attend bible studies and goto church more than once a week. But unlike most "christians" I believe that religion is the anti-christ. Everything the word encompass' makes us focus on ourselves instead of loving those around us. "religious" people are known to generally be assholes with people like Mother Teresa being "exceptions to the rule"

This is NOT what God intended. Unfortunately for our society we have allowed "religious" people too much power and control. As backpackers we all know where power leads... Straight to hades. So call me religious if you must but this is what I practice, Loving God and Loving others. Just that simple.

oh and just for reference for good ole pres bush, Jesus said
"Blessed are the peacemakers"

:cheers:

oh god, I agree with jake twice in one week. Surely the apocalypse is upon us..

I am anti-religious. I see little difference between cults and religions. I have seen too many preachers with gold caddy's and Armani suits preaching we are all going to hell in handbaskets and other crap like that. To smei-quote the Bloodhound Gang:

"If I didn't believe in myself would that be blasphemy?" - He was singing about what he would do if he were God.

foofiter

:cheers:

:lol: ROFL

i wouldnt say i am religious but as a catholic i at least have done my confirmation and my first commuion and will marry in a catholic church, as will my children.

Yeah, we need a poll option for "anti-religion." I understand the purpose it serves and have no problem with people of any religion, but I'd rather just not have anything to do with it.

Otherwise, please add a poll option for "I'd burst into flames if I walked into a church." Thank you.

That is pretty much what I do. My "church" as I like to think of it is usually more like at the ocean, in the woods, mountains, etc. I more make my own as I go basing it on others like Catholisism, Aboriginol, Greek all kind of thrown together. Nothing official or anything but it gives me peace and well, isn't that the point?

SuDZ

i'm agnostic.

As an active and traditional Catholic, I too need a category that includes more than twice a month! Since my mom is Anglican, my husband is Lutheran, one brother-in-law is Baptist and another is Muslim, and we all manage to get along, love and respect each other and laugh together, I think being religious doesn't necessarily preclude being a decent human being! ;)

Of course there are abuses made in the name of (whatever) religion, but that's because human beings are involved, and unfortunately human beings have a tendency to make mistakes...

Omi, find a fire extinguisher - the architecture and art in some churches, temples and mosques is really breath-taking, even if you don't believe in what they stand for. ;)

GoKrazy, how long will you be in Germany? We'll be living a couple hours south of Koln, arriving on the 24th of August, so we're going to miss it. Interesting that there's a German Pope this year, I think... Our priest from Lithuania is taking a youth group from our old parish to World Youth Day, we're disappointed that we'll miss seeing them, but it sounds like it's going to be an awesome event. Have a great time!

stop playing games and just admit you want to make love to me. :kisscheek:

I fit in the minimal category, i sometimes go on christmas. I have absolutely nothing against religion or anything like that, but it just isn't for me.

ditto...or is it dito? Where is God when I need help!!!!?!?!?!??!??

I'm right here. :mellow:








:torch:

As a side note I have nothing against people who follow a certain religion...otherwise I would be a very closed minded backpacker.

I rely on Reverend Jack Daniels for my day to day guidance. And no, I am not an alcoholic...alcoholics go to meetings. :nono: :lol:

On a more serious note its is cool to know what kind of religious/non-religous backgrounds all the punks come from. I am open enough to accept other people's views and respect them but not agree with them completely. I will not attack someone unless they try to force their views upon me, in which case I will ruthlessly attack them relentlessly. I value the freedom and right to make up my own mind about religion/government/anything else and I will fight to the death for it. I am an acestor of a revolutinary war soldier (not that it matters) and I believe in what he fought for.

Enough rambling!

foofiter

:cheers:

I'm a traditional Roman Catholic and proud of it. I think that every person has the right to believe in anything they want (or nothing at all if that's what they choose), but I do not like it when people put down others beliefs based on past historical references, stereotypes, etc. You cannot generalize that "religion is the opium for the masses". It works for some and not for others - it's your choice what you do. There are people out there of every religion or belief system that live wonderful lives, while others of the same religion or belief system mess it up!

Tumblezweedz - too bad you're gonna miss it... and only by a few days too. I will be in Germany on Aug 18 in Dresden, then in Cologne on the 19th. We will stay for WYD till the 21st and then we're off to Zurich. I think it's going to be amazing, especially that it's in Germany and the new Pope is German too! I went to WYD when it was in Toronto and if it's any indication I think this one will be an even more overwhelming experience. I can't wait!

This sort of behavior is left to the psychotic, dogmatic, fundamentalist believers you see on your TV everyday letting off bombs and killing people in the name of God. Beliefs are dangerous. Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. A non-functioning mind is clinically dead. Believe in nothing.
-- Maynard James Keenan

I think I've said enough on the subject

*edit
(I think this is the only post where I've jumped in on a debate, uh oh)

OK, I'll bite....

Wouldn't that belief be a contradiction in terms? (since it's a belief about other beliefs and all) Also, sticking to that quote would mean that the best thing you can do is kill yourself...

So you're saying just b/c someone doesn't have a belief system they should kill themself? There's more to life then worshipping.

The quote to me has always meant you should always be questioning things. Don't follow anything blindly. Knowing who Maynard is would probably help someone understand the quote a little more...

I'm Roman Catholic, i only go to church on special ocasions, i lost my real faith along time ago, its hard to have faith when alot of shit happens to you early in life for no reason.

If there really is a god i would like to ask him why do bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people...you know we're all dying to know the answer to that question, i mean just look around at all the shit that goes on in the world today, you have rapists and murder's that will live to be 100 and you have good people dying early in life, it doesn't make sense!

I believe that your consence is all the religion you need as long as you have that you will know right from wrong.

ok i've ranted enought

Kel

omi put me in the spontaneous combustion section aswell :lol: :stoked:

I think you misunderstood me... I'm not saying that not belonging to an organized religion means you don't have beliefs. Actually quite the opposite is true!

All I'm saying is that the quote is convoluted and it doesn't make sense.

1) This quote is meant to express a BELIEF and then it states "Believe in nothing" as the closing argument, thus negating everything is said.

2) "Beliefs are dangerous". Nope, wrong again! If anything it should say "Beliefs can be dangerous". For that matter it should say "People can be dangerous". Believing in God never hurt or killed anyone. It's when people get involved that mistakes are made. It is human to err after all.

3) "Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning"... maybe, but only if you blindly believe that (for example) God made the universe in 6 days instead of thinking of it as a metaphor as it was intended to be - thus forcing you to think deeper into it.

4) "A non-functioning mind is clinically dead" - Yup, I fully agree! Dead people can't think. So if you think about anything, you have beliefs and you are not dead. If you have no beliefs or thoughts at all - you must be dead.

4) The statement "This sort of behavior is left to the psychotic, dogmatic, fundamentalist believers you see on your TV everyday letting off bombs and killing people in the name of God" is pure exageration used simply for theatrical effect. Name ONE such person. Let's see, who's bombed someone lately... The US bombed Iraq - nope, that doesn't count, cause it was done in the name of money, retailation and to show everyone who's the boss. Further back there was Hitler - nope, he doesn't count, cause he did it for national pride and arian supremacy. Palestinian suicide bombers - nope, doesn't count, they are defending their home country from invaders who out-number, out-gun and out-power them. Plus they don't have their own TV show. ;)

Bookofkels i used to agree with you on your point here from the age of 15 we had some terrible loss go on in our family, my cousin died in a raf plane crash doing a stunt over a lake in ontario (he was 27) then when i was 16 my own dad died of cancer (he was only 39) and then 11 months later my beloved granddad died. So as you can imagine i had a real problem with god and his methods of taking people away. I refused to believe there was anything such as a god and if there was hell then we were living on it right now. I carried on believing this way up until i was 23 i suffered from really bad bouts of depression this one lasting 2 weeks where i wouldnt even get out of bed. My nan came round and dragged me out of bed as my mum really didnt know what to do with me anymore, she didnt know how to help, my nan got me dressed and told me she was taking me somewhere little did i know it would be the local spiritualist church. As soon as i walked in the church it was like a whole weight had been lifted off of my shoulders. The comfort that people got from spiritualist prayers and messages from their loved ones really help in their grief as well as my own. I have learned that nobody spiritually 'dies' their life just begins a new chapter, and that the person that we held so fondly in our hearts can live on through rememberance and love. I use the saying now when i get depressed 'whatever doesnt brake me will make me' Im not saying that i dont get depressed anymore i think im going to have that for the rest of my life but i havent had a bout of long depression since the day i walked into church.
So, my religion is not a conventional religion but it helps me to learn, live and love

oh and yes my favourite hymn (which i sing terribly off key because i have the worst singing voice ever!) is by Clara Scott

Open my eyes, that I may see
glimpses of truth thou hast for me;
place in my hands the wonderful key
that shall unclasp and set me free.
Silently now I wait for thee,
ready, my God, thy will to see.
Open my eyes, illumine me, Spirit divine!

Open my ears, that I may hear
voices of truth thou sendest clear;
and while the wavenotes fall on my ear,
everything false will disappear.
Silently now I wait for thee,
ready, my God, thy will to see.
Open my ears, illumine me, Spirit divine!

Open my mouth, and let me bear
gladly the warm truth everywhere;
open my heart and let me prepare
love with thy children thus to share.
Silently now I wait for thee,
ready, my God, thy will to see.
Open my heart, illumine me, Spirit divine!

Any rational person has some sort of beliefs, be they religious, political, social, whatever. To have "no beliefs" at all would be a cop out at best...how could a person live their life with NO structure to guide their actions?

Obviously, believing something without question is foolish and could be dangerous depending on what the individual does because of that belief, but that comes back to the issue of the human being involved, doesn't it? Why does one person who believes that abortion is a sin pray for the souls involved, while another bombs a clinic?

Most of the reading that I've done relates to the Catholic church, so that's the only one I can refer to in this case, but in my very limited experience, the greatest theologians are those that relentlessly question all aspects of their faith. Just because someone actually has faith in a formalized belief system doesn't mean they don't ask questions about it. Especially at those difficult times when horrible things happen and there doesn't seem to be any explanation for it.

"There's more to life than worshipping" - depends on what you call "worship" - some people express their faith by devoting their life to prayer and contemplation, others of equally strong faith get involved in ministering to the needs of people. Mother Theresa and the members of her order are a high profile example of "faith in action", though the person who volunteers at the local food bank, homeless shelter, orphanage whatever may also be "worshipping", by caring for others in a practical way. As may be the individual who works to preserve the environment, write a symphony, paint a picture, raise a family, travel the globe...

For those that choose to, it is possible to "worship" (defined as "to glorify God/Yahweh/Allah/the Great Spirit" not "to blindly follow") by making a conscious effort to do so in the little details of daily life.

I echo KCL & SV here...
I guess the cliched answer would be that "good" and "bad" don't really absolutely exist...but are all ultimately subjective points of view - that can change with one's POV. Any event can thus be considered both "good" or "bad" depending on different perspectives...

Or if you want to believe that everything works out for the "good," I suppose you could think that whatever happens is the best for ALL in the universe. But again, what's "good" here? Totally subjective. If the entire universe imploded into a singularity tomorrow, would that be "good" or "bad?" Isn't reality ultimately neutral? I'm sure "it" wouldn't "care" either way...

I'd worship at the church of Maynard James Keenan, but only cause you know the 'hymns' would be good!

I would say I'm kinda religious now, I was brought up catholic (Irish, no choice really) and grew to hate the church and it's day to day lies, when I lost some friends and heard the complete bollix the priest came out with "them loving their catholic religion" (but I suppose he had to say something) it just drove me right away.

I think religion has a place, it sets a standard. I see spirituality as a personal thing but religion is about the community bringing their seperate views together to learn off eachother and come to better conclusions. I think that if we can all agree that we'd be pretty close to the real "word of God".

Now I'd say I'm all religions their all more or less the same anyway but I won't live my life to religions that are thousands of years old we've moved on and I see no reason way religion can't evolve with us.

I kindof do beleave in God but I don't think he administors this universe by that I mean he's not leaving signs or planning out our lifes, I see him as the creator maybe that got it the basic set up of the universe perfect. we should be learning from his work.

I'm not really explaining myself very well, I don't have much time here at work and it's something I could go on and on and on...etc

I'm agnostic. I would say an athiest, but your right SV some ppl take it too far.

I believe that Religion is a form of brainwashing. Have seen many changes in people that have suddenly 'found religion." They have completely loss all sense of who they are, and have zilch independence. It's a scary thing. And I should know it's happened to someone very close to me..my sister.

Okay so I should just state this is how I've seen religion affect people around me!I'm not saying that this is how you all are. So don't bite my head off!

I'm a big big fan of MJK, but I don't think this was entirely thought through. I think I understand what he's trying to say, its just poorly worded.
In short, i think it means.
Keep you idea of God liquid. Once you've decided what God is and isn't and what God wants or does not want, you're vision will get blocked and you'll stop growing.
Not sayin I agree or not, just my interpretation
Funny how American money says "In God We Trust"
if you don't think the killing happening with Palestinians and Israelis is at all religiously inclined, or that there aren't frequent killings in the name of someones God, you've got some research to do.... :)
Oh and he's not talking about having your own TV show. He's talking about the news.

kill yourself? that is called a slippery slope. how the heck did you jump to that conclusion?


:starwars:

Maybe Maynard was just being funny...
Lyrics from "Hush" on the Opiate album...

^ quite possible, he was a one point a stand up comedian

appearances on Mr. Show for anyone wondering

pinion you just had to start crap didnt you! :lol:


Ok Kids here are my thoughts on belief systems. Everyone has one. Some people believe money is the road to happiness, some people think they will find it in kids or a spouse, some look for such delight in Jesus Christ and some look for it in the teachings of Buddha. The simple fact is we are all striving for more and we all believe that we know or can find the best (if not the only) way to get what we desire. I am in desperate pursuit of Jesus because I know deep in my loins that there is more to this world than just the physical. More than that though is that my entire life has been a series of unmistakable opportunities to shape and form me into who and what I am today. I do not, nay Can Not believe that these consequences were not the laid out plans of a omniscient creator.

So regardless of whether you seek to find your happiness in existing like the taoist, or you are trying to work your way to paradise like the muslim, or are in passionate pursuit of a living Jesus, or think that all of it is a load of bullshit. You believe in something. Therefore we always have that to regroup with eh?


ya'll like how this entire post was almost pointless? :kisscheek:

exactly. If there is no "god" and there is no "devil" then we have no absolutes to base our theory of right and wrong on. Without absolutes our entire society fails.

So where do you think we get these feelings, even as children of fair and unfair, right and wrong?

Generally speaking, "evolution." In other words, all our morality stems from naturally-selected self-preservation survival instincts/strategies. We are the results of those who wanted to survive. Cuz, those who didn't, didn't pass down their "suicide" genes and hardwired behavior to create us. It's not to say they were "bad," just that they didn't survive to pass down those traits today...

In short, we normally put the needs of our kids first, then us, then family, then species, etc etc. Our "compassion" for something is generally proportional to the genetic divergence/distance between us and it. We will be much more empathetic to a dog than a grasshopper. And also inversely proportional to any competitive or survival threat it poses to us. We will lose compassion for and fear a bear more than a ladybug.

This is why murdering humans is "wrong" but murdering a sheep is not (by Biblical morality). All very humancentric. And also very dogmatic - as a child might find both "bad," until he is taught otherwise later (that only the first is).

But in reality, one less human on this planet would save the lives of countless plants and animals that would otherwise have been consumed/destroyed to support that human's existence. So, it'd be "good" from THEIR perspective. Morality is only as absolute as your frame of reference. And like Einstein said, it's all relative...

In my life, I've vascillated between different ideas of religion. I was christened a Catholic...by high school, I considered myself atheist...in college, I began exploring spirituality...and now, I have discovered what may be the best reflection of my personal views, B'nei Noach. Called "The Path of the Righteous Gentile," I aim to follow the Seven Laws of Noah, which are:
1 - Establish courts of law
2 - Do not blaspheme
3 - Do not worship idols
4 - Do not murder
5 - Do not commit adultery
6 - Do not steal
7 - Do not eat the limb of a living animal

i got to church every sunday. but thats bc its my parents church and seeing as i am a minor... i kind of have no choice... (which sucks)

I used to be really religious (Christian) but then one day i just stopped. So now i don't know if I'm atheist or agnostic.

So I didn't vote cuz... I go every week, yet I'm no way near religious.

Beergal, i'm proud to be catholic i've just lost faith in it...i know that doesn't make much sence, but whenever i go to chaple i do feel at ease, i have my own reasons for losing my faith but i don't think i've lost it just that it isn't that strong. See if i ever have children i would want them cristened, for no other reason that it was beside me all my life, never changed the way i was but it was a stable thing (any gardeners out there that have stuck a rod into a plant to help it grow, well same applies)..........see my thing is that i'm a good person but in my 27 years have had nothing but shit so i'm sorry if my faith lapses over time

I consider myself to be religious but I very rarely go to Church. I was born an Anglican but raised Quaker. The Quaker belief is that while they have meetings for worship every Sunday, God is everywhere. For me its not about how many hours you are in Church for , it about how you try and live your life and what you believe. I am not a Quaker anymore but I have taken that piece of Quakerism with me on my spiritual journy.

^^^ Well after seeing this post I believe in resurrection. :lol:

I'm not religious at all. I'm an atheist but you could call me an agnostic because I think that the existence of God is irrelevant and undecidable. You can assume he does exist, doesn't exist, or neither, and not have any problems.

judaism interests me. i went to yom kippor at a local temple last year. interesting, it was. things like that just don't *stir* me. you know? maybe i'm heartless or have no soul or something. oh well.

^^ I get that Penn. I'm Jewish by birth/heritage, but, like above, not religious. I've actually been trying to find a good liberal rabbi to help me reconcile my beliefs with my feelings of Jewry.

:pope: I remember that love is what God wants us to do and we are all sinners so the bible teaches us to be careful not think we are righteous.
:friends: I am hopeful for life and the afterlife when I think about the Catholic religion. I am proud of the Church and the Pope, for sending a message of openness which welcomes anyone and everyone from any background coming to it to worship God. I have heard it said that religion teaches people to feel like failures which I found a good answer to in Pope Benedict's new book. In the Pope's book he says that we are holy or at least we cam share in the Lord's holiness when we act like Jesus Christ, or his holiness is shared with us. I was raised Catholic but I have enjoyed the religion more recently which has been strengthened by experiences in Rome. My travel interest in Rome was non-religion based but it enhanced my belief to experience a Jesus celebration at night in Piazza Navona where people were dancing and I fellowshipped with other believers. Norman Vincent Peale says that this is the best joy life has to offer in his book the Power of Positive Thinking. I have recently returned to Maine where I save money by living at home because I want to travel and paint. I listen to radio broadcasts of a born again Christian station and I question the association with a denomination when I can read the bible until I think in the apostles creed how it recognizes and believes in the lives of saints. Through studying art history I learned about the worship of saints during the time of the plagues and the faith people had in praying to Mary and Saint Francis to end the plagues. I have prayed for a saints intercession when I needed something miraculous to happen and it miraculously did happen on a trip to Italy. St. Jude is the patron saint of miracles and the hospital which gives free treatment and is a leader in cancer research gives its name to St. Jude the patron saint of miracles. On tv I saw that a child received free care there. I am sure that it has performed miracles and God blesses many there. When I go to my local Roman Catholic church I feel good and inspired by the company, and shared prayer of others and I love praying and finding new ways to pray. For this the Catholic religion has answered my prayers to.

I search for new ways to pray and I went in to a Catholic church one Sunday and the subject was prayer. It was just before travelling to Italy on my first solo trip which probably made me seek God and pray way more than usual. I needed Him to hear my prayers and grant them. In mass the priest said that in the news there was a car accident caused by a person talking on a cell phone;
"Has anyone ever heard of someone getting into a car accident while they were praying?" the priest asked.
He then shared a prayer technique with us that was in four parts. First, express humility, then adoration, then regret for sin, and then provision. I realized I could be doing anything else being busy and not focusing on him so I spent an incredible amount of time each day praying and it paid off in the most amazing travel experience in of all places Rome. I am probably going to attend a biblestudy class for the first time with some Christian co-workers and I am writing about travelling and God-willing I will contribute to Tpunks travel stories. :drool:

Theology and history and goegraphy (and art) are so interesting!

I was raised Mormon.... however, I no longer consider myself a Mormon. Nor do I consider myself religious. Organized religion is not for me, doubt it ever will be. I do consider myself spiritual though. My spirit is very independent, which...when asked to remain contained within one organization...I've felt suffocated, controlled, judged and extremely unhappy. It's as if I've been asked to close my eyes, stop listening, discontinue the use of my brain and to stop the natural desire I have to use all of my senses...which, are what help me navigate my way through life. But as an independent being, capable of learning and growing...my spirit is most happy when my mind is free to choose how I want to contribute to this world.

Sooo, that's how it is for ME. I can't say how it is for anyone else. Organized religion may be the right compass for most people to navigate through life. But, for some reason...that compass doesn't work for me.

Once I think I really know what it is that I believe, and try to define "it"....my beliefs have already grown and shaped themselves into something slightly different. Every day, small and/or large impressions are made on my life....giving me that much more insight into what it is (or isn't) that I believe about the purpose of my own existence.

nice to see that a bunch of folks can talk about a flashpoint issue without totally losing it.

i studied religion as a major college (historical/comparative focus, not seminary) and the one thing i notice to all good ideas is that they get corrupted when a bunch of men get involved. most faiths started with a set of great ideas that got corrupted when a bunch of guys get together in a room make all the rules. once that happens it easily becomes a dumping ground for the prejudices, fears, and failings of the guys at the table.

i don't believe in heaven or hell. and i'm proud of everyone who does the best they can and aren't doing it out of fear of eternal damnation or guarantee of a happy everafter. that being said, i kind of have a problem with groups of people who honestly believe that decent, honest, moral, ethical, caring, generous people won't go to heaven without following some set of rituals, following the seven sacraments or being born again. my god wouldn't care.

and though i am as guilty as the next guy in taking shots at most forms of organized religion, in a lot of ways i know that that is a load of crap too. by making generalizations like that i am being as ignorant as the side of the family that tried to convert my side every time we see them. as much as it is dismissed as the cause of most of the conflicts in the world, it also does a lot of good for a lot of people. i guess you can't talk about something as broad as religion without taking into account that it is really just a product of the people that participate.

that's all, i promise not to pontificate so much on any other posts. religion and spirituality have always been a huge interest of mine, so it is hard to resist.

omisan: opiate was one of my top ten albums of the 90's. lots of cigarette smoking an very loud solo car singing to that one in high school.

kindraDC: had a few friends of mine grow up mormon and then leave the church. that's a big move, especially of the rest of your family's still observing. nice to hear you're doing well.

thejake: i really dig the fact you're making the effort to find jesus without an orthodox umbrella. definitely liked a lot of what jesus said, or things we can prove he said through some of the canonical and non-canonical gospels (thomas, etc.), and it amazes me how much power the bible give to people like paul, who never even met him.

one thing you mentioned that i'm not sure i agree with is that it is absolutes that keep society together. i've always found that it is the absolutes, or points of view that embrace making divisions like that make great, obedient societies, but that they don't do humanity any favors. i come from the point of view that there is no one truth. just varying points of view.

peace out ~C

Thanks Soma... :cheers: (I'll drink to that! ;) )

Most of my family are still devout Mormons...except for myself, my two brothers and my Dad.

Somehow....we managed to get out....
Unfortunately, scars remain (:fyou: Mormon Inc.)...but, I'm relatively healthy now. :)

glad most of your immediate family go out. one of the folks i was referring to did it by himself and his family still has to pretend he's dead. the scarring sucks but you guys are better off.

and yes, now that you're out we can drink to that. coffee, guinness. just about anything you'd like, though booze of coffee would be an appropriate :fyou: to the old gang.

wow, this is an intensely interesting thread to read. I was raised Roman catholic which is what my mother is, but my father was raised Ukrainian Orthodox and was athiest by the time I was born and left any sort of religious upbringing to my mother. We went to chuch without my father, but I often went to the Ukrainian services because the rest of my dad's family still practised it. It was really interesting going to both of these Masses growing up, seeing these really old religions that were once the same. But now they're different! It's insane to think that the differences in these churchs make one better than the other!
This is why I can't say I'm happy with organized religion. They all believe in a higher power, but the rules to get there are just traditions that some people started to disagree with, thus starting their own different religion with more traditions that different others disagree with. Maybe there's something bigger than us, but i can't know that. and yes, i'll be the first to admit that i'll start asking/praying to that random presence(which could just be a comfort thing) on occasion. it's impossible not to, i think. But I can't say I would ever be able to accept what organized religion tells me to do.

On the other hand, I love churches/synagogues/temples. not the big new mega churches with tv screens and whatnot, but ones that have meaning. i might not agree witht the religious rules of the people in it, but i feel that there is a lot of love and hope and faith put into these structures. When i travel, i always go to the churches and try to see a service. And whenever any of the choirs I've been in has an opportunity to sing in one, it's always the most memorable experience.
If anything, music is my faith, and i don't mean that in a sappy way. Religious music or otherwise, it can express all emotions, give hope, reassurance, tell a story of vengence and dispair. it's amazing that when i sing a certain song, i can start crying from one emotion or actually laugh with another.
Sorry this went on a rant, but I totally understand why people have religion in their lives. I have friends of all faiths some more strict than others. But I think just getting to sing the Bach Mass in b minor in a huge old cathedral is all the religion i need. and what i like most about it is getting to feel what religion meant to a certain person. How people 200 years ago would feel about their god after they heard the piece it for the first time. it's an awe inspiring feeling.

Since everyone is stating what they believe, I will try myself with help from Scripture.

I believe in God, the father, the creator of heaven and earth. Christ His only Son, whom He sent to earth to cleanse the sin that entered our world in the garden. I believe that Christ is the only way to heaven - (Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. no one comes to the Father except through me - John 14:6) - and that we must repent - "For all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23 - to be redeemed in Him. Because "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Accepting Christ is accepting eternal life. Christ gave his life for you and I, and He rose again!

Well, there is kinda a Sunday sermon. :pope: A bad one, but that's what I got right now at this time of night when I should be studying.

Astro - Yes there is differences in those denominations, I'm not very familiar with them, but I think both at the core of their beliefs is Christ.


Maybe I can write more after finals.


...yuh.

My first post made no sense atall so I'll give it another go

I was brought up Irish Catholic and hated the church for a long time, but I've come to realise religion isn't in itself a bad thing. Originaly religion and belief in God would have been a great liberation it took the power away from kings and lords and made everyone equal. The church was originaly just a meeting point for Christians and got twisted. They are using God to empower themselfs. I do think that religion has a place if everyone has the same beleifs there would be no conflict having people break away because they don't agree with particular bits creates conflict and leads to cults.

I don't see the bibles as the word of God, I see them as an attempt by the minds of the time to explain the mystry of life, and fair play they wheren't far off in some respects.

Sceintists that research the big questions like string theory and the theory of everything even admit to themselfs at times that there's no better explanation for a universe this perfect (if the slightest detail of this universe was different, like the weight of an electron none of it would be here) is that something created it.

I don't think evolution or the big bang proves that God isn't real, theres a certain inevitablity built into the universe and the way things in it work that goes beyound co-inkedink.

I'm very open to the God theory but I don't think he's anything like in the bible, they depicted him as a king solving problems as they arose because it's all they knew at the time. As far as I can see if there is a God based on what we know today that depiction has to be wrong.

So, God, Religion - good. Powermongering people - Bad.

Not religous, more mystical. For me they had it right before decided that god was to be judge and measure of all things beautiful. To be honest though, i have never considered any religions, as my family were not in any way religous.

Unfortunately now after studying philosophy for four years i now don't believe in reality either. In fact none of us do. In the utterly nonsensical words of a very wise man:
''Fundamentally no-one believes in the reality of his or her own existence. That would be too sad.''