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Extremely - I attend church 2 or 3 times/month 7 9.72%
Moderate - I attend church between 6 to 12 times/year 4 5.56%
Minimal - I attend church on holidays and for weddings 8 11.11%
Non-religious - I generally do not attend church 53 73.61%
Voters: 72. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-28-2005, 07:37 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by d_fresh@Jun 28 2005, 01:48 PM
i'm agnostic.
ditto...or is it dito? Where is God when I need help!!!!?!?!?!??!??
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Old 06-28-2005, 08:16 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by TimmyJames1976@Jun 28 2005, 09:36 PM
Where is God when I need help!!!!?!?!?!??!??
I'm right here.








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Old 06-28-2005, 08:53 PM   #23
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Question

As a side note I have nothing against people who follow a certain religion...otherwise I would be a very closed minded backpacker.

I rely on Reverend Jack Daniels for my day to day guidance. And no, I am not an alcoholic...alcoholics go to meetings.

On a more serious note its is cool to know what kind of religious/non-religous backgrounds all the punks come from. I am open enough to accept other people's views and respect them but not agree with them completely. I will not attack someone unless they try to force their views upon me, in which case I will ruthlessly attack them relentlessly. I value the freedom and right to make up my own mind about religion/government/anything else and I will fight to the death for it. I am an acestor of a revolutinary war soldier (not that it matters) and I believe in what he fought for.

Enough rambling!

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Old 06-28-2005, 09:24 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by tumblezweedz@Jun 28 2005, 04:12 PM
GoKrazy, how long will you be in Germany?* We'll be living a couple hours south of Koln, arriving on the 24th of August, so we're going to miss it.* Interesting that there's a German Pope this year, I think...* Our priest from Lithuania is taking a youth group from our old parish to World Youth Day, we're disappointed that we'll miss seeing them, but it sounds like it's going to be an awesome event.* Have a great time!
I'm a traditional Roman Catholic and proud of it. I think that every person has the right to believe in anything they want (or nothing at all if that's what they choose), but I do not like it when people put down others beliefs based on past historical references, stereotypes, etc. You cannot generalize that "religion is the opium for the masses". It works for some and not for others - it's your choice what you do. There are people out there of every religion or belief system that live wonderful lives, while others of the same religion or belief system mess it up!

Tumblezweedz - too bad you're gonna miss it... and only by a few days too. I will be in Germany on Aug 18 in Dresden, then in Cologne on the 19th. We will stay for WYD till the 21st and then we're off to Zurich. I think it's going to be amazing, especially that it's in Germany and the new Pope is German too! I went to WYD when it was in Toronto and if it's any indication I think this one will be an even more overwhelming experience. I can't wait!
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Old 06-28-2005, 09:33 PM   #25
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This sort of behavior is left to the psychotic, dogmatic, fundamentalist believers you see on your TV everyday letting off bombs and killing people in the name of God. Beliefs are dangerous. Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. A non-functioning mind is clinically dead. Believe in nothing.
-- Maynard James Keenan


I think I've said enough on the subject

*edit
(I think this is the only post where I've jumped in on a debate, uh oh)
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Old 06-28-2005, 09:45 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by pinion@Jun 28 2005, 08:32 PM
This sort of behavior is left to the psychotic, dogmatic, fundamentalist believers you see on your TV everyday letting off bombs and killing people in the name of God. Beliefs are dangerous. Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. A non-functioning mind is clinically dead. Believe in nothing.
-- Maynard James Keenan

OK, I'll bite....

Wouldn't that belief be a contradiction in terms? (since it's a belief about other beliefs and all) Also, sticking to that quote would mean that the best thing you can do is kill yourself...
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Old 06-28-2005, 09:50 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by GoKrazy@Jun 28 2005, 09:44 PM
Also, sticking to that quote would mean that the best thing you can do is kill yourself...
So you're saying just b/c someone doesn't have a belief system they should kill themself? There's more to life then worshipping.

The quote to me has always meant you should always be questioning things. Don't follow anything blindly. Knowing who Maynard is would probably help someone understand the quote a little more...
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Old 06-28-2005, 09:54 PM   #28
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I'm Roman Catholic, i only go to church on special ocasions, i lost my real faith along time ago, its hard to have faith when alot of shit happens to you early in life for no reason.

If there really is a god i would like to ask him why do bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people...you know we're all dying to know the answer to that question, i mean just look around at all the shit that goes on in the world today, you have rapists and murder's that will live to be 100 and you have good people dying early in life, it doesn't make sense!

I believe that your consence is all the religion you need as long as you have that you will know right from wrong.

ok i've ranted enought

Kel
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Old 06-28-2005, 10:02 PM   #29
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omi put me in the spontaneous combustion section aswell
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Old 06-28-2005, 10:26 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by pinion@Jun 28 2005, 08:49 PM
So you're saying just b/c someone doesn't have a belief system they should kill themself? There's more to life then worshipping.

The quote to me has always meant you should always be questioning things. Don't follow anything blindly. Knowing who Maynard is would probably help someone understand the quote a little more...
I think you misunderstood me... I'm not saying that not belonging to an organized religion means you don't have beliefs. Actually quite the opposite is true!

All I'm saying is that the quote is convoluted and it doesn't make sense.

1) This quote is meant to express a BELIEF and then it states "Believe in nothing" as the closing argument, thus negating everything is said.

2) "Beliefs are dangerous". Nope, wrong again! If anything it should say "Beliefs can be dangerous". For that matter it should say "People can be dangerous". Believing in God never hurt or killed anyone. It's when people get involved that mistakes are made. It is human to err after all.

3) "Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning"... maybe, but only if you blindly believe that (for example) God made the universe in 6 days instead of thinking of it as a metaphor as it was intended to be - thus forcing you to think deeper into it.

4) "A non-functioning mind is clinically dead" - Yup, I fully agree! Dead people can't think. So if you think about anything, you have beliefs and you are not dead. If you have no beliefs or thoughts at all - you must be dead.

4) The statement "This sort of behavior is left to the psychotic, dogmatic, fundamentalist believers you see on your TV everyday letting off bombs and killing people in the name of God" is pure exageration used simply for theatrical effect. Name ONE such person. Let's see, who's bombed someone lately... The US bombed Iraq - nope, that doesn't count, cause it was done in the name of money, retailation and to show everyone who's the boss. Further back there was Hitler - nope, he doesn't count, cause he did it for national pride and arian supremacy. Palestinian suicide bombers - nope, doesn't count, they are defending their home country from invaders who out-number, out-gun and out-power them. Plus they don't have their own TV show.
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Old 06-29-2005, 01:42 AM   #31
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Quote:
If there really is a god i would like to ask him why do bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people...you know we're all dying to know the answer to that question, i mean just look around at all the shit that goes on in the world today, you have rapists and murder's that will live to be 100 and you have good people dying early in life, it doesn't make sense!
Bookofkels i used to agree with you on your point here from the age of 15 we had some terrible loss go on in our family, my cousin died in a raf plane crash doing a stunt over a lake in ontario (he was 27) then when i was 16 my own dad died of cancer (he was only 39) and then 11 months later my beloved granddad died. So as you can imagine i had a real problem with god and his methods of taking people away. I refused to believe there was anything such as a god and if there was hell then we were living on it right now. I carried on believing this way up until i was 23 i suffered from really bad bouts of depression this one lasting 2 weeks where i wouldnt even get out of bed. My nan came round and dragged me out of bed as my mum really didnt know what to do with me anymore, she didnt know how to help, my nan got me dressed and told me she was taking me somewhere little did i know it would be the local spiritualist church. As soon as i walked in the church it was like a whole weight had been lifted off of my shoulders. The comfort that people got from spiritualist prayers and messages from their loved ones really help in their grief as well as my own. I have learned that nobody spiritually 'dies' their life just begins a new chapter, and that the person that we held so fondly in our hearts can live on through rememberance and love. I use the saying now when i get depressed 'whatever doesnt brake me will make me' Im not saying that i dont get depressed anymore i think im going to have that for the rest of my life but i havent had a bout of long depression since the day i walked into church.
So, my religion is not a conventional religion but it helps me to learn, live and love

oh and yes my favourite hymn (which i sing terribly off key because i have the worst singing voice ever!) is by Clara Scott

Open my eyes, that I may see
glimpses of truth thou hast for me;
place in my hands the wonderful key
that shall unclasp and set me free.
Silently now I wait for thee,
ready, my God, thy will to see.
Open my eyes, illumine me, Spirit divine!

Open my ears, that I may hear
voices of truth thou sendest clear;
and while the wavenotes fall on my ear,
everything false will disappear.
Silently now I wait for thee,
ready, my God, thy will to see.
Open my ears, illumine me, Spirit divine!

Open my mouth, and let me bear
gladly the warm truth everywhere;
open my heart and let me prepare
love with thy children thus to share.
Silently now I wait for thee,
ready, my God, thy will to see.
Open my heart, illumine me, Spirit divine!
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Old 06-29-2005, 05:11 AM   #32
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Any rational person has some sort of beliefs, be they religious, political, social, whatever. To have "no beliefs" at all would be a cop out at best...how could a person live their life with NO structure to guide their actions?

Obviously, believing something without question is foolish and could be dangerous depending on what the individual does because of that belief, but that comes back to the issue of the human being involved, doesn't it? Why does one person who believes that abortion is a sin pray for the souls involved, while another bombs a clinic?

Most of the reading that I've done relates to the Catholic church, so that's the only one I can refer to in this case, but in my very limited experience, the greatest theologians are those that relentlessly question all aspects of their faith. Just because someone actually has faith in a formalized belief system doesn't mean they don't ask questions about it. Especially at those difficult times when horrible things happen and there doesn't seem to be any explanation for it.

"There's more to life than worshipping" - depends on what you call "worship" - some people express their faith by devoting their life to prayer and contemplation, others of equally strong faith get involved in ministering to the needs of people. Mother Theresa and the members of her order are a high profile example of "faith in action", though the person who volunteers at the local food bank, homeless shelter, orphanage whatever may also be "worshipping", by caring for others in a practical way. As may be the individual who works to preserve the environment, write a symphony, paint a picture, raise a family, travel the globe...

For those that choose to, it is possible to "worship" (defined as "to glorify God/Yahweh/Allah/the Great Spirit" not "to blindly follow") by making a conscious effort to do so in the little details of daily life.
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Old 06-29-2005, 06:15 AM   #33
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I echo KCL & SV here...
Quote:
Originally posted by bookofkels@Jun 28 2005, 10:53 PM
If there really is a god i would like to ask him why do bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people...you know we're all dying to know the answer to that question, i mean just look around at all the shit that goes on in the world today, you have rapists and murder's that will live to be 100 and you have good people dying early in life, it doesn't make sense!
I guess the cliched answer would be that "good" and "bad" don't really absolutely exist...but are all ultimately subjective points of view - that can change with one's POV. Any event can thus be considered both "good" or "bad" depending on different perspectives...

Or if you want to believe that everything works out for the "good," I suppose you could think that whatever happens is the best for ALL in the universe. But again, what's "good" here? Totally subjective. If the entire universe imploded into a singularity tomorrow, would that be "good" or "bad?" Isn't reality ultimately neutral? I'm sure "it" wouldn't "care" either way...
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Old 06-29-2005, 07:40 AM   #34
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I'd worship at the church of Maynard James Keenan, but only cause you know the 'hymns' would be good!
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Old 06-29-2005, 07:45 AM   #35
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I would say I'm kinda religious now, I was brought up catholic (Irish, no choice really) and grew to hate the church and it's day to day lies, when I lost some friends and heard the complete bollix the priest came out with "them loving their catholic religion" (but I suppose he had to say something) it just drove me right away.

I think religion has a place, it sets a standard. I see spirituality as a personal thing but religion is about the community bringing their seperate views together to learn off eachother and come to better conclusions. I think that if we can all agree that we'd be pretty close to the real "word of God".

Now I'd say I'm all religions their all more or less the same anyway but I won't live my life to religions that are thousands of years old we've moved on and I see no reason way religion can't evolve with us.

I kindof do beleave in God but I don't think he administors this universe by that I mean he's not leaving signs or planning out our lifes, I see him as the creator maybe that got it the basic set up of the universe perfect. we should be learning from his work.

I'm not really explaining myself very well, I don't have much time here at work and it's something I could go on and on and on...etc
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Old 06-29-2005, 08:36 AM   #36
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I'm agnostic. I would say an athiest, but your right SV some ppl take it too far.

I believe that Religion is a form of brainwashing. Have seen many changes in people that have suddenly 'found religion." They have completely loss all sense of who they are, and have zilch independence. It's a scary thing. And I should know it's happened to someone very close to me..my sister.

Okay so I should just state this is how I've seen religion affect people around me!I'm not saying that this is how you all are. So don't bite my head off!
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Old 06-29-2005, 08:47 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by GoKrazy@Jun 28 2005, 09:25 PM
This sort of behavior is left to the psychotic, dogmatic, fundamentalist believers you see on your TV everyday letting off bombs and killing people in the name of God. Beliefs are dangerous. Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. A non-functioning mind is clinically dead. Believe in nothing.
-- Maynard James Keenan
I'm a big big fan of MJK, but I don't think this was entirely thought through. I think I understand what he's trying to say, its just poorly worded.
In short, i think it means.
Keep you idea of God liquid. Once you've decided what God is and isn't and what God wants or does not want, you're vision will get blocked and you'll stop growing.
Not sayin I agree or not, just my interpretation
Quote:
The US bombed Iraq - nope, that doesn't count, cause it was done in the name of money
Funny how American money says "In God We Trust"
Quote:
Palestinian suicide bombers - nope, doesn't count, they are defending their home country from invaders who out-number, out-gun and out-power them. Plus they don't have their own TV show.*
if you don't think the killing happening with Palestinians and Israelis is at all religiously inclined, or that there aren't frequent killings in the name of someones God, you've got some research to do....
Oh and he's not talking about having your own TV show. He's talking about the news.
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Old 06-29-2005, 09:51 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by GoKrazy+Jun 28 2005, 09:44 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GoKrazy @ Jun 28 2005, 09:44 PM)</div>
Quote:
<!--QuoteBegin-pinion
Quote:
@Jun 28 2005, 08:32 PM
This sort of behavior is left to the psychotic, dogmatic, fundamentalist believers you see on your TV everyday letting off bombs and killing people in the name of God. Beliefs are dangerous. Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. A non-functioning mind is clinically dead. Believe in nothing.
-- Maynard James Keenan

OK, I'll bite....

Wouldn't that belief be a contradiction in terms? (since it's a belief about other beliefs and all) Also, sticking to that quote would mean that the best thing you can do is kill yourself... [/b]
kill yourself? that is called a slippery slope. how the heck did you jump to that conclusion?


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Old 06-29-2005, 10:19 AM   #39
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Maybe Maynard was just being funny...
Quote:
I can't say what I want to,
even if I'm not serious.
Things like....
\"Fuck yourself,
kill yourself,
you piece of shit.\"

People tell me what to say,
what to think ,
and what to play.

I say...
\"Go fuck yourself,
you piece of shit.
Why don't you go kill yourself?\"

Just kidding.
Lyrics from "Hush" on the Opiate album...
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Old 06-29-2005, 10:29 AM   #40
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^ quite possible, he was a one point a stand up comedian

appearances on Mr. Show for anyone wondering
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