how long will it take for france to surrender??

[TheJake]

Ok Ignore that question. I posted a whole other thread so we won't hijack this one.

[mark-0]

Originally posted by xanthuos@Nov 8 2005, 01:21 PM
While I agree that immigrants seem to want to create their own country within a country rather than integrating into society in France and other nations (Canada actually comes to mind)

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I agree that immigrants do tend towards keeping to themselves and try and maintain the culture of their old country, they don't typically reject the laws up here in Canada and try to assert what they feel is right. Canada is proof that you don't need to completely integrate immigrants and make them "Canadian" to preserve order. They can maintain their cultural ideals and live within Canadian society without situations like the one in France, but that could have been a result of government policies, like others have suggested. Also, some muslims here in Ontario have tried to get the government to let them use Shariah law in family issues and there was some debate, some people on both sides got upset, but in the end, the government said "No" and insisted that the laws in Canada are as free of religious influence as possible. The debate went away shortly after and no one got so pissed as to riot.

[chelseafc05]

was the other french riot one deleted or somthin to restore order to the boards?

[TheJake]

Um for the time being, Yes.

[pinion]

Originally posted by TheJake@Nov 9 2005, 11:09 PM
Um for the time being, Yes.

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Everyone has to place nice or they get their toys taken away

[MolsonGirl]

No matter what the cause of these riots may be.. I feel that any person relishing in another country's anguish (simply cause it makes them feel like their country is "better") needs to take a serious look at who they are as a person. It's disgusting. Every country has it's problems, there is no such thing as Thomas Mores Utopia. So please take a look at yourself and try and discover why you feel the need to push others down in order to make yourself feel good.

[TimmyJames1976]

Originally posted by indierock05@Nov 9 2005, 03:03 AM
It's hilarious how people all over the world, especially the US are so dug into this riotting thing.

Some dumb kids went into an electrical box and blew themselves up (kind of funny I think - sucks for their fams of course)

But the french government isnt bringing in the army.* Totally something the US would do.

Plus I am living in france now, and the riots are not some demolition war zone type area.* I think the french are doing a good job with it!

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actually the US would not bring in the army since we do not use our troops against our citizens....maybe a military branch such as the guard....but usually just butt loads of police at all levels


when the US army start patrolng the citizens thing will get messy...


anyways

yeah the riots suck....

[ted]

Only on tpunk could a joke start an international debate. Yes it’s true that there is no utopia in the world and every country has its problems, but calling some one disgusting or saying they have to put another country down to feel good about their own is a little harsh to me. I hold no ill will toward France for their criticisms about my home (the place I love most in the world) and I hope this problem can be resolved quickly and peacefully. That being said I see nothing wrong with a joke about a country who has constantly talked shit about the U.S. on this very subject, karmas a bitch. Trust me I know I’m American; we have a lot coming back our way and very soon. Plus I would love to see an honest poll on this site of all the people who might experience a momentary impulse of joy at seeing bush fail or a similar situation with the U.S.. I’ll I’m saying is it’s a joke lighten up; we don’t need to be burning flags and crying out "but what about the children" just yet. And the same goes for telling people they need to learn more about themselves because they find something funny and you don’t. I don’t think it’s a good joke really but anyway that’s all I have, let the backlash commence.

[TheJake]

Ok Kids,
Behave or this thread might get the treatment too.

[xanthuos]

Originally posted by mark-0@Nov 9 2005, 11:53 PM
I agree that immigrants do tend towards keeping to themselves and try and maintain the culture of their old country, they don't typically reject the laws up here in Canada and try to assert what they feel is right. Canada is proof that you don't need to completely integrate immigrants and make them "Canadian" to preserve order. They can maintain their cultural ideals and live within Canadian society without situations like the one in France, but that could have been a result of government policies, like others have suggested. Also, some muslims here in Ontario have tried to get the government to let them use Shariah law in family issues and there was some debate, some people on both sides got upset, but in the end, the government said "No" and insisted that the laws in Canada are as free of religious influence as possible. The debate went away shortly after and no one got so pissed as to riot.

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Perhaps most Canadians chose to ignore the growing ruckus by so-called "outraged" immigrants when they feel THEIR rights have been violated (even if those violations occured because of an adherence to current law). That doesn't mean that there isn't a growing "dissatisfaction" that these immigrants aren't getting their way (in my opinion, special treatment).

Sikh student banned from train for wearing kirpan

• A Sikh man is considering taking Via Rail to the Ontario Human Rights Commission because the Crown corporation won't let him wear his ceremonial dagger on its trains.

Quebec gives thumbs down to Shariah law

• Yes, Quebec (and Ontario) have both rejected the use of Shariah law...but that's always subject to change, and the demands to do so are likely to increase.

There's more instances, like the Sikh youth in BC who claimed he was a victim of a hate crime...which turned out later to be false. There are the demands from Chinese immigrants for repatriation for a "head tax" on immigrants that the supposedly "perfect" Canadian government collected from the 1880s until 1923.

So believe me, in Canada, there ARE immigrant groups that are attempting to create their own "country within a country" - whether it be by imposing their own set of laws, or asking for special treatment from the government.

[LiveFreeorDie]

I think this whole thing is a tragic situation, but has brought to a head issues that need to be resolved by many western countries, particularly Europe.

I think the key difference betwen many European countries and the U.S. and Canada is that many European countries have a very narrowly focused cultural and in some cases ethnic identity. France is certainly at the top of that list. Most French people are very proud of their culture and their heritage and their history. This cultural identity has been in existence for hundreds of years. It is hard for someone from outside France to come in and integrate with that culture and feel as if they are truly "French" because of the long history involved and the narrow definition of what it means to be "French". Also, "French" people want to maintain and preserve this identity and the history and tradition that go along with it.

America and Canada are still new kids on the block and do not have a real ethnic or cultural identity - certainly not such a strongly focused one as many European countries. The existing societies in the U.S. and Canada were created and formed from all sorts of diverse cultures and were formed almost entirely from immigrants over the last couple of hundred years. Due to this, immigrants can come even now and if they make an effort to learn the language, they can feel much more a part of society. The social stigma, while certainly there for first generation immigrants, is not nearly what is is in European countries and as second and third generations come along and are fully integrated into society - they are certainly much more able to beleive that they are truly American or Canadian....whether their parents or grandparents were from Europe or the Middle East, or Asia or Africa. Immigrants in the U.S. can still maintain many of their cultural heritage and still be considered American.

I am not saying racial bias doesn't exist, it certainly does, but the strong cultural imprint that exists in European countries and is such a strong deterrent to integrating immigrants is almsot (but not entirely) non-existent in the US and Canada.

How Europe deals with these issues in the next quarter century will be very interesting. At the end of the day...what does it really mean to be "French"??

[mark-0]

Is simply preserving one's cultural identity in a new and openly diverse country what you would call "creating a country within a country"? I see that as simply trying to live according to one's social and cultural values in a country where one may have more freedom and opportunities. I don't think that the false allegations of hate crime against the Sikh youth apply to this debate at all. It wasn't for special treatment because he was a Sikh. It was probably just for attention, or as the police said, possibly an excuse to shed an aspect of Sikh culture to become more "normal" (whatever normal means). I think that Canada tends to treat immigrants a bit better and this growing disaffection you speak of will not manifest itself in the form of riots like in France, but more likely in reasoned public debate. And I think that Canada is becoming more attuned to the needs of immigrants and we are becoming increasingly accomodating of the needs of immigrants from vastly different societies and cultures.