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Old 01-05-2006, 08:09 AM   #21
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Originally posted by voyd@Jan 5 2006, 07:02 AM
^^ Qi is real IMO -
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OK then- what is it, and where is the evidence for it?
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Old 01-05-2006, 08:49 AM   #22
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Sounds pretty interesting. I was just reading through a message board yesterday (completely unrelated to acupuncture) and a woman was talking about how she was finally preggos after going through about 10 failed IVFs and years of trying. She had done two months of acupuncture and boom. Could be a coincidence, but you never know.
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Old 01-05-2006, 09:24 AM   #23
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Originally posted by @dam@Jan 5 2006, 10:09 AM
OK then- what is it, and where is the evidence for it?
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Well, although qi is literally everywhere, the ancient Chinese in particular studied and refined it into a scientific art. Hence, you'll probably notice that the few really great masters alive today are typically elderly Chinese born before the Cultural Revolution in China (when many such ancient traditions were temporarily outlawed). Hence, most would be at least 50 today. A few symptoms of a qigong adept may also include looking very young for their age, great health and often puffy, translucent hands swollen with qi.

For example, I recently attended a seminar given by this couple (long-haired lady & man in dark suit):

No, I'm not sure how legit they are - but they do look far younger than they probably are - which we estimate to actually be in their late 40s or 50s.. Regardless, their philosophy is representative of most such methods:
Quote:
Longevitology is a* natural therapy healing method that uses the human body to receive energy from the universe. It involves the relaxation of the body and mind in order to acquire the energy in a natural way. This is achieved by sitting quietly without any complicated body positions and quieting the heart (mind). The whole process is done naturally, therefore there are no side effects and can be practised by anybody regardless of their race, political belief, conviction or religion.

Longevitology believes that good health is the result of chi and blood flowing smoothly and any maladjustment between them will result in illness. Disease or illness is cured when the energy acquired by the above mentioned technique enters our body and then energizes every cell, enabling the body organs to function normally. This will lead to chi and blood flowing actively thus improving circulation and metabolism, raising the levels of antibodies and improving the immune system of the body. As a result of this, the filth of a disease is expelled by the metabolic system of the body itself thus the whole healing process is natural and does not involve any medical equipment, massage, oral medication or drugs. Most importantly, there are no side effects and it is perfectly safe.
However, believe whatever you want... This is just my personal opinion and experience!
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Old 01-05-2006, 09:22 PM   #24
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Fine then. What is it, and where is the evidence for it. I'll give you a hint- it isn't scientific.
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Old 01-05-2006, 09:53 PM   #25
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Ya know, for millenia people believed that the world was flat.

Hey, we're all entitled to our opinions. Mine happens to be that there is actually quite a bit of benefit to many "alternative" therapies such as acupuncture, acupressure and massage. If someone wants to tell me I'm full of shit when I feel a million times better after being stuck with a few needles for a short amount of time, well, it's my right to tell them it helped. Whether or not they believe me because I can't provide "proof" that I feel better is highly irrelevant.
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Old 01-05-2006, 11:34 PM   #26
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Originally posted by @dam@Jan 6 2006, 12:22 AM
Fine then.* What is it, and where is the evidence for it.* I'll give you a hint- it isn't scientific.
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Old 01-06-2006, 12:09 AM   #27
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Yeah, man, whatever works for you works for you. I have relatives who lived damn near forever eating nothing but homemade yogurt in their latter years, thinking it was the ultimate health food - and some from the same family who quickly keeled over with coronaries from all the fat content.

Lesson: Despite all the science (or lack thereof) in various health/longevity rituals/beliefs around the world, it comes down to what works for you.

While I'm a black sheep, I come from a large family of health professionals (doctors, nurses, surgeons, etc.) and very few of them would deny the healing power of alternative treatments, even if they fly in the face of the science they've studied professionally for years - because they believe that whatever makes the patient feel better is ultimately going to aid to their quality of life, and mental well-being is a cornerstone of good health.
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Old 01-06-2006, 08:42 AM   #28
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I'm just frustrated with people confusing things that are scientific with things that are completely anecdotal. It discourages logical, critical thinking and it has become increasingly problematic. Where are the double-blind clinical trials if it is so great? The evidence for acupuncture actually curing things is completely anecdotal and testimonial. There is evidence that some types of acupuncture are useful for temporarily treating symptoms such as pain, although it isn't clear whether this is mere distraction, placebo effect, or an actual manipulation of the nervous system. Acupuncture has NOT been proven to alter the course of any disease.

Acupuncture is based on superstition and hocus pocus. The number of points (loci) correspond to the days of the year, and the whole idea is to balance your yin and yang (the combonition of which is your "Ch'i" or "Qi"). Ch'i could be described as "The Force" on Star Wars- an energy field created by all living things . The imbalance of your Ch'i, according to acupuncture, is supposed to be the CAUSE of your illness- not a genetic disorder or a virus or a physical injury or anything like that. Besides the patients symptoms, diagnosis was also based on things like the state of the weather! Because the Chinese didn't scientifically discet people, internal organ's locations were guessed at, and some organs that don't even exist in humans were invented. In another varient of acupuncture, the Chinese decided that your ear looks a bit like a fetus, so they'd treat where the fetal organ would be on your ear to treat your problem. This is NOT scientific. It was pure conjecture by a pre-scientific culture.

That said, as long as the equipment is sterile (Remember- truely traditional Chinese medecine doesn't recognize germs as the cause of disease) and durable (you don't want the needle to break off inside you) and penetration is shallow (some needles are up to a foot long!), there is little risk of harm in trying it if that floats your boat. It'll only hurt your pocketbook.

But hey- why stop there. Lets get back to traditional European medicene, like bloodletting. The ideas behind it are just as believeable as those behind acupuncture, if not more so ("bad blood" often isn't too far off the course).
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Old 01-06-2006, 09:31 AM   #29
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It's funny that you are calling us a scientific culture. This is where-in the problem lies, I believe.

Science is fascinating. Don't get me wrong. But science is nowhere near capable of explaining things that operate outside of it's realm of labs. Things like patients having cancer one day and it being gone the next, acupuncture, meditation, etc.

There are things that simply are and your desire to have them proved through science is undermining the core beliefs of millions of people. I, for one, would choose to remain "ignorant" and "pre-scientific" when it comes to my faith.
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Old 01-06-2006, 09:32 AM   #30
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It discourages logical, critical thinking and it has become increasingly problematic.
On the contrary I think it encourages logical and critical thinking.

No one here has claimed that any of this has a basis in science. It's just what people believe and what works for them - as SV said, you can't tell her it DOESN'T work for her if it does. Hocus pocus, superstition, whatever - to each his/her own. No one is forcing it on you, telling you you have to use acupuncture as a form to cure whatever ail. It's just an alternative method for people to use who choose to do so.

You could have the same argument about religion and religious beliefs.
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Old 01-06-2006, 10:04 AM   #31
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I never said we were a scientific culture. In fact, I think we're moving in the wrong direction (see Kansas school board). If you want to abandon technology and science, maybe you should avoid vaccinations and air travel though.

Once upon a time, before science, people invented superstitous and mystical explanations for things they didn't understand. Science has, and still is, dispelling these myths. It explains more and more of what happens outside of its "realm of labs" every day. I doubt we will ever be done learning, and new scientific discoveries are being made all the time. However, just because something is not yet fully understood by science doesn't mean we should immediately accept a completely made up alternative. Instead, we should just say "we don't know yet". Accepting and promoting superstitions as explanations for things we don't know, or worse yet as alternatives to things we DO know, is very bad for critical thinking and logic.

I never suggested acupuncture was being forced upon me. However, the topic was asking if anybody else was into acupuncture. My answer was "No", but instead of leaving it at that I thought I'd offer an explanation as to why.
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Old 01-06-2006, 10:05 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by jamiepeaski@Jan 6 2006, 10:32 AM

You could have the same argument about religion and religious beliefs.
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You sure could.
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Old 01-06-2006, 10:42 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by @dam@Jan 6 2006, 10:42 AM
Acupuncture is based on superstition and hocus pocus.* The number of points (loci) correspond to the days of the year, and the whole idea is to balance your yin and yang (the combonition of which is your "Ch'i" or "Qi").* Ch'i could be described as "The Force" on Star Wars- an energy field created by all living things .* The imbalance of your Ch'i, according to acupuncture, is supposed to be the CAUSE of your illness- not a genetic disorder or a virus or a physical injury or anything like that.* Besides the patients symptoms, diagnosis was also based on things like the state of the weather!* Because the Chinese didn't scientifically discet people, internal organ's locations were guessed at, and some organs that don't even exist in humans were invented.* In another varient of acupuncture, the Chinese decided that your ear looks a bit like a fetus, so they'd treat where the fetal organ would be on your ear to treat your problem. This is NOT scientific.* It was pure conjecture by a pre-scientific culture.

That said, as long as the equipment is sterile (Remember- truely traditional Chinese medecine doesn't recognize germs as the cause of disease) and durable (you don't want the needle to break off inside you) and penetration is shallow (some needles are up to a foot long!), there is little risk of harm in trying it if that floats your boat.* It'll only hurt your pocketbook.

But hey- why stop there.* Lets get back to traditional European medicene, like bloodletting.* The ideas behind it are just as believeable as those behind acupuncture, if not more so ("bad blood" often isn't too far off the course).
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Well, genes would be considered "hardware" and qi "firmware." So yes, genes still > qi. Although qi would then > most other environmental things...

Overall, you just have a different Western POV than the Chinese one.

For example, you say germs "cause" disease. Well, TCM would assign the "blame" more to having a weak immune system (which is caused by blocked meridians - which can be inherited, caused by synthetic meds or suppressing "negative" emotions). After all, we are literally deluged with germs all over us - but only the weak get sick. And, is it more practical to attempt to destroy all germs (and breed supergerms) or boost all our own immune systems? Which will offer better future resistance for you? Or, which is more profitable? Ancient Chinese did actually invent vaccinations (smallpox) prior to the 10th century AD, but that was still seen as an inferior, noncomprehensive method.

Environmental factors like weather can also influence a person's condition - so it could be relevant to consider.

And why did the Chinese study live humans vs dead corpses? Because health deals with LIVE people filled with lifeforce, not dead ones. Not that you can't learn from cadavers too, but which is more relevant to functioning human health? TCM is the science of wholistic living life and LIFEFORCE is a HUGE missing piece of that puzzle that you can't ignore. Something obvious that Western medicine still refuses to fully acknowledge. What the fvck is the exact difference is between a LIVE and a DEAD person???

Anyways, modern Western allopathic medicine gained huge credibility with the slow recognizance of germs as disease vectors in the 1800s and the successful usage of penicillin around WWII. However, it was soon corrupted by greedy ultracapitalists like Morris Fishbein into a highly profit-driven drug industry today. Today, clinical testing costs millions and only corporate pharmaceuticals can afford that. Also, you can only patent synthetic medicines - so they have no motivation to clinically-test natural methods or herbs. It's become a country-club racket where only the big players can even afford to play.

That said, what would life be without choices? A true Chinese master can be awesome, but exceedingly rare. The rest are far less effectual and the masses tend to substitute superstition for understanding. I'd be just as wary of them, as well. Meanwhile, pill-popping may relieve your symptoms, but in the long run your body will only continue to deteriorate as the root causes are not getting fixed. Remember, our bodies evolved over millions of years to be self-sustaining. They sure didn't evolve to need manmade chemicals. So, that's not real healing in my book, but does offer the instant gratification that many may prefer. Whereas TCM aims to restore NATURAL functioning to the body.

Well, in the end, the proof is in your pudding. I could be wrong. So, whatever floats your boats, folks!
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Old 01-06-2006, 11:17 AM   #34
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That was a fairly well thought out reply, but I still largely disagree.
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Originally posted by voyd@Jan 6 2006, 11:42 AM
Well, genes would be considered "hardware" and qi "firmware."* So yes, genes still > qi.

Overall, you just have a different Western POV than the Chinese one.

For example, you say germs "cause" disease.* Well, TCM would assign the "blame" more to having a weak immune system (which is caused by blocked meridians - which can be inherited, caused by synthetic meds or suppressing "negative" emotions).*

After all, we are literally deluged with germs all over us - but only the weak get sick.* And, is it more practical to attempt to destroy all germs (and breed supergerms) or boost all our own immune systems?* Which will offer better future resistance for you?* Or, which is more profitable?* Ancient Chinese did also invent vaccinations (smallpox) prior to the 10th century AD, but that was still seen as an inferior, noncomprehensive method.
Germs cause some diseases. The most effective western medicine out there are medicines that boost the immune system, like vaccines (which generally aren't advocated as "Traditional Chinese Medicine). There is no evidence that a weak immune system has anything to do with meridians. Other diseases are genetic in nature, and the immune system is of no use there. Again, no link has been found between genetic problems and meridians. Genetic problems cause changes to the chemistry or structure of the body.

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Environmental factors like weather can also influence a person's condition - so it could be relevant to consider.
Weather mostly effects mood, but it seems unreasonable to prescribe a different treatment for your toothache when it is sunny than for when it is windy out.

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And why did the Chinese study live humans vs dead corpses?* Because health deals with LIVE people filled with lifeforce, not dead ones.* Not that you can't learn from cadavers too, but which is more relevant to functioning human health?* TCM is the science of wholistic living life and LIFEFORCE is a HUGE missing piece of that puzzle that you can't ignore.* Something obvious that Western medicine still refuses to fully acknowledge.* What the fvck is the exact difference is between a LIVE and a DEAD person???
You're turning that point around. The point wasn't that it is important to understand dead people, but that it is important to understand anatomy, which is the same in both live and dead people. The exact difference between a live person and a dead person is having a metabolism- not The Force. If you stop breathing and pumping blood, metabolism ceases and you die. Metabolic processes are well understood and quantified. The same can not be said of Ch'i. People have only suggested that there is Qi, and offer no explanation of what it is and how to quantify its properties- in short how to identify and understand it. It has been pure guess work, plain and simple.

Quote:
Anyways, modern Western allopathic medicine gained huge credibility with the slow recognizance of germs as disease vectors in the 1800s and the successful usage of penicillin around WWII.* However, it was soon corrupted by greedy ultracapitalists like Morris Fishbein into a highly profit-driven drug industry today.* Today, clinical testing costs millions and only corporate pharmaceuticals can afford that.* Also, you can only patent synthetic medicines - so they have no motivation to clinically-test natural methods or herbs.* It's become a country-club racket where only the big players can even afford to play.
The most prevalent examples I can think of off-the-cuff of natural methods being adapted for medical purpose are these
-The pacific ewe tree contained chemicals that were used for cancer treatment. These chemicals were scarce, so they were later synthesized as a more responsible alternative to deforesting the Pacific Northwest
-Opiates play a huge role in medicine
-Vaccines are obviously natural (weakened microbes), and are even made in chicken eggs

Drugs are VERY expensive to develop, and they can also be very dangerous. I'm frankly glad clinical trials are so extensive. Drugs are also a risky business. Many companies have invested hundreds of millions in a new drug only to go belly up when the drug doesn't pass it's clinical trials. If drugs weren't profitable, companies wouldn't take the huge risks necessary to develop the drugs and they wouldn't be available in the first place. I'd rather have an expensive drug available than no drug.

Quote:
That said, the choices are up to the individual.* A true Chinese master can be awesome, but exceedingly rare.* The rest are far less effectual and the masses tend to substitute superstition for understanding.* I'd be just as wary of them, as well.* Meanwhile, pill-popping may relieve your symptoms, but in the long run will weaken your body as the root causes are not getting fixed.* Remember, our bodies evolved over millions of years to be self-sustaining.* They sure didn't evolve to need manmade chemicals.* So, that's not real healing in my book, but offers the instant gratification that many may prefer.* But, in the end, the proof is in your pudding.* I could be wrong.* So, whatever floats your boat!
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Many pills do relieve only symptoms. Others are cures or treatments for the root cause. It is thought acupuncture is only useful for temporary symptom relief, so what is the difference?

Our bodies did evolve without synthetic chemicals. Until the synthetic chemicals were developed, it was also common to only live to be about 35 years old. I like the new way better.
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Old 01-06-2006, 11:18 AM   #35
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Just because one believes in Eastern medicine doesn't mean they don't accept Western medicine or vice versa - The practices aren't incompatible, and evolved more in parallel than in opposition to each other.

For some reason, everyone gets the impression that our "modern" medicine is diametrically opposed to "alternative" therapies, when in fact, none of the (major) practices really contradict one another.

Obviously stuff like psychic faith healers pulling chicken livers out of cancer patients' stomachs is bull-shizzity-shit, but not even a Johns-Hopkins trained MD with a neurosurgery fellowship wouldn't deny their patients' right to engage in aromatherapy, Reiki, accupuncture, etc. if it makes them feel better.

I'm a believer in and adherent of the scientific method, but one of the fundamental bases of it is that all science is theory, strengthened by bits and bits of evidence, but none is absolute truth. Truth is for "true believers," and we all know what kind of trouble that sort of mindset leads to.
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Old 01-06-2006, 11:44 AM   #36
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@dam - Qi and qigong are still considered "paranormal fringe science" in the West (and even much of the East). So, this is akin to arguing over Bigfoot or UFOs - as documented witnessing is scarce, debateable and belief would require a complete paradigm shift in one's worldview. Thus, only ~5% who have had some personal encounter might believe, while the other 95% will remain doubtful skeptics.

Obviously, regarding qi, I am in that 5% and you are in that 95%. Until you become part of the 5% (if ever), you will understandably remain stuck in your 95% mentality. Which is fine with me!

However, based upon your emotional reaction and more-than-perfunctory knowledge on the subject, I might assume that either:

1) You're an ex-DragonballZ fan who got bitterly disillusioned by reality - and have now swung to the other extreme.
2) Deep down, you actually want to believe in this stuff.

And again, either would be fine by me... Just realize the limits to rationalizing your own beliefs. A flat-Earther could have given many rationalizations to himself why the Earth "couldn't" be round. It looks flat, stuff would fall off, blah blah.

But it will probably take a convincing personal experience to shift your paradigm - not my words on some board here. Hence, I'm not going to bother trying or correcting some of your factoids. It just wouldn't be enough. So, until then, cheers.
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Old 01-06-2006, 12:00 PM   #37
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Old 01-06-2006, 01:07 PM   #38
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I'd say faith healing is about as beneficial as acupuncture, so don't draw too big of a distinction between the two. They are more alike than different.

Also, don't make so many presumptions about me. The truth is, I'm generally a very analytical, methedological person. I HATE making the wrong decision about anything (just look at my dilema in the Gear forum about choosing a backpack!) Until about six months ago, I had pretty much no opinion of acupuncture. It is so popular and so talked about that I made the mistake of ASSUMING there was a limited, but real, scientific understanding and tested basis behind it. My wife has crohn's disease, and was trying everything to calm down an episode. One day, I noticed on the credit card statement that she was going to see an acupuncturist several times per week for $50. If it were only $10, I'd say sure- why not. It is worth a shot. If we're spending serious money on something ($100s of dollars per month) I wanted to make sure it was money well spent though, so I did a little research (as I always do before spending hundreds of dollars). I discovered all of the things mentioned above, which is why I have more than a perfunctory understanding of acupuncture. My response was a bit spirited because I see things going around here that only foster the misguided beliefs I had about acupuncture before I actually researched it amongst others.

Oh yeah, BTW- I forgot to mention something in the post above. I brought up the thing about germs not causing illness because if you believe yin-yang imbalance causes disease rather than the germs themselves, then there is no need to sterelize the acupuncture needles, right? I mean, if the acupuncture is fixing your Qi anyway, sterlizing the needles is kind of unecessary, isn't it? No need to clean the skin at entry points either, right? Your Qi will be extra-good there! Also note- some forms of hepatitis C can survive immersion in alcohol for a time.
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Old 01-06-2006, 01:41 PM   #39
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^ Well, it sounds like you had a unimpressive experience with TCM. But like I said, the vast majority of "TCM" doctors don't have real qi skills. I even gave you some symptoms to look for in a legit master.

Treatments from a legit master can range from free to $100. The latter might be considered pricey, but could still be a good value depending upon what you're getting. And remember, merely staying in a hospital these days costs like $300/day. Then you get some surgery and it's way up in the thousands, fast. And in the end, it's mostly just slash & burn (nuke it all or cut out the bad part) - not true healing. So, the main financial difference is that allopathic medicine is normally covered by insurance, whereas a lot of alternative medicine is not. Which is not a fair comparison, then (although the harsh reality).

I definitely know about spending your money wisely, though. A few hundred out-of-pocket definitely warrants some good research first.

I've tried acupuncture myself. Honestly, I felt a little or not much. Again, a needle is only a tool and the key is the person using it. The really good ones don't even need needles. Qi is the critical component here, not the tool. I have had some friends who had really good results with it, though. And none harmful, as of yet.

As far as germs/immunology - they're 2 sides of the same coin. I'm sure a qigong master is extra-resistant to germs, but most patients are obviously not.

I am sorry about your wife. Crohn's sounds like a real bych, although thankfully not fatal or anything?

J - Lol, the grass is always greener - but look at me I'm really brown!
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Old 01-06-2006, 01:59 PM   #40
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Omisan- the scientific definition and the popular definition of the word "theory" are quite different. In the scientific world, it is a well establish and supported fact. The popular definition is something like 'a clever idea'- closer to what a scientist might call a "hypothesis".

Voyd- the whole insurance things brings up a pretty good point, actually. We all know that nobody can pinch a penny like an insurance company. If they could get effective results for pennies on the dollar, why don't they?
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