Guns - TravelPUNK Backpacker College Student Budget Travel Message Boards!

**MeTurk** · 11-15-2005, 09:05 AM

I noticed in the other thread that quite a few people where pro-guns. What is it with Americans and guns, as an outsider it seems so obvious that guns cause more harm than good, what good can they really do?

I know guns are cool, I think their cool, I'd love to go to America and try some of them out but I also know I have no valid reason to own one and that everyone around me would be at risk if I had one, people flip out and do stupid things, don't give them guns.

It seems bizzare that such a religious country can condone and encourage everyone to have a letal weapon in their home.

I might get alot of stick for this, but I seariously don't get it. The only time I've seen anything other than a double barrel shotgun was when I went to the army barricks as a young lad on a school tour and when I went to America. Saw loadsa guns then! Only on cops luckily.

Killer Cyborg · 11-15-2005, 09:33 AM

Da 12 gauge autoloader......

.45 long slide with laser sightings......

Pahsed plasma rifle with a 40 Watt range.....

UZI 9MM !!!!!

**Rozza** · 11-15-2005, 09:34 AM

well in meturk.

xanthuos · 11-15-2005, 10:33 AM

A lot of statistics have shown that defending yourself with a firearm causes a lower injury rate than other methods of defending yourself, including not doing anything. With proper storage of firearms, the safety becomes almost a non-issue.

What it really comes down to is government control. In Nazi Germany, gun control started out as a relatively benign program of registering firearms and the like...and grew from there. I don't think to involve Nazi Germany as an example is a violation of Godwin's Law because it's documented fact, not simply hyperbole.

Any of you who think America can't become like Nazi Germany, I'd implore you to simply look at our current President!

**TimmyJames1976** · 11-15-2005, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xanthuos@Nov 15 2005, 11:33 AM
A lot of statistics have shown that defending yourself with a firearm causes a lower injury rate than other methods of defending yourself, including not doing anything.* With proper storage of firearms, the safety becomes almost a non-issue.*

What it really comes down to is government control.* In Nazi Germany, gun control started out as a relatively benign program of registering firearms and the like...and grew from there.* I don't think to involve Nazi Germany as an example is a violation of Godwin's Law because it's documented fact, not simply hyperbole.*

Any of you who think America can't become like Nazi Germany, I'd implore you to simply look at our current President!*

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statistics also show that gun owners in the US have a %5o greater chance to die via homocide...

that being siad

its more so an issue of our constitution then of guns themselves....if we start nixxing gun rights then free speech rights can go, then who knows what...

although this is kinda happening anyway

xanthuos · 11-15-2005, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TimmyJames1976@Nov 15 2005, 10:56 PM
statistics also show that gun owners in the US have a %5o greater chance to die via homocide...

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I agreed with the rest of what you said, but on this particular point, I have to ask you to cite such research.

For example, this study was flawed in its conclusions. For example,
"Gun ownership was most strongly associated with homicide at the hands of a family member or intimate acquaintance (addjusted odds ratio, 7.8 ...). Guns were not significantly linked to an increased risk of homicide by acquaintances, unidentified intruders or strangers" (p.1087).

So really, owning a gun doesn't increase your risk of homicide from outsiders, only from family or intimate acquaintances...methinks that many of those murders might have happened anyway, using a different type of weapon. I don't like my family all the time, but I know none of them would shoot me if we had firearms in the house.

**TimmyJames1976** · 11-15-2005, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xanthuos@Nov 15 2005, 08:40 PM
I agreed with the rest of what you said, but on this particular point, I have to ask you to cite such research.

For example, this study was flawed in its conclusions.* For example,
"Gun ownership was most strongly associated with homicide at the hands of a family member or intimate acquaintance (addjusted odds ratio, 7.8 ...). Guns were not significantly linked to an increased risk of homicide by acquaintances, unidentified intruders or strangers" (p.1087).

So really, owning a gun doesn't increase your risk of homicide from outsiders, only from family or intimate acquaintances...methinks that many of those murders might have happened anyway, using a different type of weapon.* I don't like my family all the time, but I know none of them would shoot me if we had firearms in the house.

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this is a study run by who? this comes from a pro gun site? im a bit confused and too lazy to read it all....but hey, if u wanna believe that a place where there are guns is safer then a place where there arn't go right ahead...

**Tadpole** · 11-15-2005, 10:38 AM

Our country was founded on the princple of the Right to Bare arms. The purpose is not to protect yourself from your neighbor but from your governement.

"The right of the people to keep and bear...arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
James Madison

The first step any dictator does is remove the weapons from the locals. Nazi germany, Iraq... then they get rid free media.

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for few public officials."
~George Mason

The government here is idealy not suppose to rule the people but represent the pople. In the old old days the new government didnt want to turn into the same type of government that England was back then. So they granted the right for citizans to bare arms. it is a very debated issue in America. Unles someone thinks they will be ableto change the Bill of Rights then nothing will change for the time being.

In France, they wanted to form a miltia. However, they didnt have guns the government wouldnt allow them. No militia nor strentgh over the government. Whether they are right or wrong i have not opinion. But the point is if the citziens dont like the governement and the governemnt want change, its kinda traditon over here to overthrow the government haha..ok Jk on that last part but its kinda the same principle.

**MolsonGirl** · 11-15-2005, 11:58 AM

I've never really looked into it... but I think we're allowed to bear arms also... but I've never had the impulse to do so... video games are enough for me

xanthuos · 11-15-2005, 12:53 PM

Most rights to firearms in Canada are restricted to guns for hunting purposes only. Handguns are very restricted in Canada, as far as I've been able to research.

Really, one must look at the proposed solutions. In a population of nearly 300 million people, there are estimated to be over 222 million firearms, over 75 million of them firearms. The arguments for gun control are much like the arguments for stopping P2P file downloading. The floodgates have been open - so just like you're not going to stop file downloading, you'll never be able to clear the streets of guns. In the meantime, there are many citizens who fall victim to crime when there was a potential for defending themselves, if they chose, with a firearm.

**bluepea** · 11-15-2005, 02:14 PM

I think it's just the American environment that makes guns so socially acceptable. I really never consider NOT having them around - it just doesn't seem possible. Anyhow, I do own one, yes for protection and yes to make my (lack of) balls seem bigger. Okay, not seriously the second one, but I do love shooting a pistol. My parents live in the country and they have a psuedo shooting range set up. It's nice to just be out there - not sure why it's relaxing to shoot.

I never carry my gun with me. I keep it in a secure location with the loaded magazine in a separate location.

**Joker** · 11-15-2005, 03:01 PM

Hmm

As a gun owner, and avid shooter (and sometimes hunter), i find it interesting to see/hear the difference in opinions from overseas.

First off:

Guns in the hands of responsible citizens pose zero threats to any person, place, or thing. However, guns in the hands of an irresponsible person are a deadly weapon.

Secondly:

There is a not a culture of adoration of guns that seems to exist to folks looking in. But this is the stereotype of America and Americans in general.

Third:

It is with the Second Amendment to the COTUS that we defend the First and the rest.

Four:

I am a responsible gun owner, and I thoroughly enjoy going to the range to practice, and quite frankly, relieve a bit of stress. No offense to you, MeTurk, but I'd never let you touch one of mine until I was sure that you were going to handle it properly, IE, taken a course (as I have) or the infatuation that your post implies were not evident any longer. A firearm is not a car you can test drive for the hell of it. It is an instrument solely designed to kill its target, and if you don't have the respect for that, don't use one.

Five: (since this is where its going)

Not one bit of gun control legislation ever passed in this country (dates to the 1930's) has ever prevented a murder/robbery/etc. Gun control is a symbolism over substance legislation that prevents honest, responsible citizens from obtaining firearms legally. criminals in this country, according to the FBI's Uniform Crime Statistics almost always use illegally obtained firearms.

Carry on.

**juliagulia** · 11-15-2005, 03:55 PM

well said joker.

i think that there should be something done so that its harder to gain illegal firearms, but, alas that is more difficult done than said...

i think itd probably be a good idea for the government to require gun owners to take a course like joker did (unless... the gov. already requires it... if thats the case... ignore that last comment...)

**Joker** · 11-15-2005, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by juliagulia@Nov 15 2005, 04:55 PM
well said joker.

i think that there should be something done so that its harder to gain illegal firearms, but, alas that is more difficult done than said...

i think itd probably be a good idea for the government to require gun owners to take a course like joker did (unless... the gov. already requires it... if thats the case... ignore that last comment...)

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For a clarification, Julia: In Maryland, to own a handgun, the state requires the background checks, etc, and a mandatory safety class. Take it once every couple years if you decide to buy more than one gun. This is important because someone in the State House actually thought about the legitimate side of gun control: a firm grip on the gun and the sight aimed properly at your target!

But the flip side is that required with purchase is a physical gun lock, that the state makes you buy. This is back on the symbolism over substance front, because once I get it home, I'm just gonna leave it unlocked, anyway. Can't physically make me use the lock, right? Theoretically, its a good-intentioned idea, but bad execution.

Now, the extreme is the Canadian gun laws are downright laughable, if not moronic. IIRC, you cannot transport a firearm unless you are going directly to a gun club for shooting purposes. You can't stop off and get a cup of coffee at Tim Hortons if your gun is in the car, its that much of a felonious offense. For that matter, you cannot have a firearm and its ammo in the same room of your home, even if they are locked seperately. God help you if you shoot a perp that is attempting to rob or harm you...

Anyway...

:D

**Tadpole** · 11-15-2005, 04:51 PM

The governemnt does reguire you to take a course on it, kinda. You cant hunt without taking an 8 hour course. And you cant carry around a weapon on you or in your car without taking a course. Its called a concealed weapon permit. That being said you still can buy a gun without a couse but you cant do anythign with it legally besides keep it at your house in a closet.

The law does restrict citizns from having full automaic weapons. Being machine guns and so forth. Citizens can still buy assult rifles like the M-16(actually its a cilvian gun called an AR-15 that is the same thing as an M-16 minus the automatic feature)and an AK-47. Wether or not you actually need something like that is up to the citizen.

**Joker** · 11-15-2005, 05:13 PM

Clarification to the Tadpole's post:

1. Hunting policies are regulated differently state-to-state. In MD I had to take about 20 hours of class time IIRC, and qualify with a rifle, though now rifle deer hunting is banned in most of MD.

2. Concealed Carry Weapons (CCW) are only permitted in certain states, and is regulated VERY HEAVILY. In this country you can't just walk around with a hand cannon on your hip, unless you are on private property. That is illegal. But the gist of the argument: Many states offer the ability to CCW, but not all. And to get it you must have a perfectly squeeky clean record. Courses are mandatory, and CCW owners are held to an extremely high standard when it comes to using Deadly Force. DF does not mean you can wave your gun around like a cowboy. You are given a rare privilege, so it is expected that you will respect it. More about CCW and the use of DF later.

3. So-called assault rifles are perfectly legal to own given your locality's individual laws. Class III firearms, so-called machine guns are also perfectly legal to own, provided you have a clean record, and are willing to submit to the Federal Government the required documents and fees. Anyone that is wanting and doesn't have a record can own them. But the prices are extremely prohibitive ($10K+). Of course, this is also dependant on your locality's laws.

4. I know too much about the legality of firearms. :D

**TheJake** · 11-15-2005, 05:32 PM

Actually Joker in Utah you can carry a firearm anywhere you want. Visible or hidden.

Course people also dissapear in that state.... *shivers*

But seriously it got me off guard when I was walking through the grocery store and 1 outta every 3 guys had a six-shooter... Crazy People!

**Tadpole** · 11-15-2005, 05:43 PM

Quote:

But seriously it got me off guard when I was walking through the grocery store and 1 outta every 3 guys had a six-shooter... Crazy People!

Thats kinda scary. But at the same time you know no one is going to try anything.

**jabad17** · 11-15-2005, 06:13 PM

Quote:

But seriously it got me off guard when I was walking through the grocery store and 1 outta every 3 guys had a six-shooter... Crazy People!

haha, utah just went on my list of places to visit!

chelseafc05 · 11-15-2005, 06:29 PM

so if i was an american and past all the security checks etc would i be able to by assault rifles ie ak47's, m16's etc etc and a range of machine guns? and othe assorted military style weapons?