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05-23-2005, 09:43 AM
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#1
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So, I saw this editorial last Friday and thought it shed some interesting light on the whole issue that has been in the press lately about the (false as it turned out) charge of soldiers desecrating the Quran in Guantanomo Bay. I would be interested to see people's reactions. (And I can see them already....."jeez, if Saudi Arabia has such a poor record on human rights issues, why hasn't the U.S. invaded Saudi Arabia too..." ) Probably becuase of the big "conspiracy" between the Bush family and the Saudi royal family....duh
COMMENTARY
Hypocrisy Most Holy
By ALI AL-AHMED
May 20, 2005
With the revelation that a copy of the Quran may have been desecrated by U.S. military personnel at Guantanamo Bay, Muslims and their governments -- including that of Saudi Arabia -- reacted angrily. This anger would have been understandable if the U.S. government's adopted policy was to desecrate our Quran. But even before the Newsweek report was discredited, that was never part of the allegations.
As a Muslim, I am able to purchase copies of the Quran in any bookstore in any American city, and study its contents in countless American universities. American museums spend millions to exhibit and celebrate Muslim arts and heritage. On the other hand, my Christian and other non-Muslim brothers and sisters in Saudi Arabia -- where I come from -- are not even allowed to own a copy of their holy books. Indeed, the Saudi government desecrates and burns Bibles that its security forces confiscate at immigration points into the kingdom or during raids on Christian expatriates worshiping privately.
Soon after Newsweek published an account, later retracted, of an American soldier flushing a copy of the Quran down the toilet, the Saudi government voiced its strenuous disapproval. More specifically, the Saudi Embassy in Washington expressed "great concern" and urged the U.S. to "conduct a quick investigation."
Although considered as holy in Islam and mentioned in the Quran dozens of times, the Bible is banned in Saudi Arabia. This would seem curious to most people because of the fact that to most Muslims, the Bible is a holy book. But when it comes to Saudi Arabia we are not talking about most Muslims, but a tiny minority of hard-liners who constitute the Wahhabi Sect.
The Bible in Saudi Arabia may get a person killed, arrested, or deported. In September 1993, Sadeq Mallallah, 23, was beheaded in Qateef on a charge of apostasy for owning a Bible. The State Department's annual human rights reports detail the arrest and deportation of many Christian worshipers every year. Just days before Crown Prince Abdullah met President Bush last month, two Christian gatherings were stormed in Riyadh. Bibles and crosses were confiscated, and will be incinerated. (The Saudi government does not even spare the Quran from desecration. On Oct. 14, 2004, dozens of Saudi men and women carried copies of the Quran as they protested in support of reformers in the capital, Riyadh. Although they carried the Qurans in part to protect themselves from assault by police, they were charged by hundreds of riot police, who stepped on the books with their shoes, according to one of the protesters.)
As Muslims, we have not been as generous as our Christian and Jewish counterparts in respecting others' holy books and religious symbols. Saudi Arabia bans the importation or the display of crosses, Stars of David or any other religious symbols not approved by the Wahhabi establishment. TV programs that show Christian clergymen, crosses or Stars of David are censored.
The desecration of religious texts and symbols and intolerance of varying religious viewpoints and beliefs have been issues of some controversy inside Saudi Arabia. Ruled by a Wahhabi theocracy, the ruling elite of Saudi Arabia have made it difficult for Christians, Jews, Hindus and others, as well as dissenting sects of Islam, to visibly coexist inside the kingdom.
Another way in which religious and cultural issues are becoming more divisive is the Saudi treatment of Americans who are living in that country: Around 30,000 live and work in various parts of Saudi Arabia. These people are not allowed to celebrate their religious or even secular holidays. These include Christmas and Easter, but also Thanksgiving. All other Gulf states allow non-Islamic holidays to be celebrated.
The Saudi Embassy and other Saudi organizations in Washington have distributed hundreds of thousands of Qurans and many more Muslim books, some that have libeled Christians, Jews and others as pigs and monkeys. In Saudi school curricula, Jews and Christians are considered deviants and eternal enemies. By contrast, Muslim communities in the West are the first to admit that Western countries -- especially the U.S. -- provide Muslims the strongest freedoms and protections that allow Islam to thrive in the West. Meanwhile Christianity and Judaism, both indigenous to the Middle East, are maligned through systematic hostility by Middle Eastern governments and their religious apparatuses.
The lesson here is simple: If Muslims wish other religions to respect their beliefs and their Holy book, they should lead by example.
Mr. al-Ahmed is director of the Saudi Institute in Washington.
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05-23-2005, 10:27 AM
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#2
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Minister of Offense
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I agree with the editorial...
I remember in high school, I once put a hole through a bible with a drill press, just to piss off the evangelicals who were handing them out on campus. Yeah, I was even more of a disrespectful bastard back then.
My (muslim) dad nearly killed me for doing so. It all goes back to that whole golden rule and "do unto others..." thing, I guess! Since then I've learned that although I may not give a damn for anyone's religion, I also have to respect their rights to believe in and practice it. Why others can't seem to get that is beyond me...
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05-23-2005, 12:41 PM
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#3
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bibles smibles thats my moto. Has anyone ever thought that these holy books were only ever wrote because there was no tv
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05-23-2005, 12:45 PM
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#4
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Quote:
Has anyone ever thought that these holy books were only ever wrote because there was no tv
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I dunno, I'd put television in the same class of mass-brainwashing BS
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05-23-2005, 01:07 PM
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#5
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Quote:
Originally posted by omisan@May 23 2005, 11:26 AM
My (muslim) dad nearly killed me for doing so. It all goes back to that whole golden rule and \"do unto others...\" thing,
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Well, considering the historical bodycount of Christianity through centuries of persecution and forceful conversion/genocide of non-believers (Spanish Inquisition alone lasting 356 years) - isn't drilling a hole thru a Bible really the very LEAST you could do?
I also agree that if such books were written today - no way would they be instantly believed with no convincing multi-media proof of their claims and some further elaboration by their authors. There would be at least a bare minimum degree of healthy skepticism expressed by a large educated populace - not a handful of ancient ignorant villagers who would worship a radio if they ever saw one, lol.
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05-23-2005, 01:40 PM
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#6
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A big thing in my (immediate) family (esp. with my mom) is respecting other people. you can't just sit around and expect people to respect your religion and declare your religion above everyone else. a thing that really pissed me off was when i saw this pamphlet at my parents' church that listed things to pray for. and one was:
NAO APPROVACAO DO ''SAME-SEX MARRIAGE''
Basically, the church wanted people to pray that ssm WASNT approved. and in a religion that focuses SO MUCH on respecting one another, it honestly made me want to kill someone (which at the moment was my aunt who writes the pamphlets). (if you guys read "Equal Rights'', i said that i was gonna do my essay/speech on women in combat, but i ended up doing SSM instead).
though homo-sexuality isnt a religion, 95% of the time , homo-sexuals are either atheist, agnostic, or a religion that does accept homo-sexuality (some forms of Buddihsm, Hinduism, and few Christian forms). so wanting to ban SSM is literally disrespecting someones right to practice his/her religion or his/her lack of religion.
sadly, something that has always existed is disrespect of other religions that might lead to persecution and harm to followers of that religion, and i guess that writer just wanted to show that its not just Christianity that does it...
its... different to see the Bible being disrespected as well... not that im saying that its morally right... but, youre always used to seeing other people persecuted... esp. in the U.S.
i guess i changed the topic a bit... but reading that article just made me this about SSM and the disrespect sorrounding it
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05-23-2005, 01:57 PM
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#7
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I have no problems with respecting someones religion until their religion starts to impose on my way of life. I don't go around burning bibles, so I don't see why evangelists have to go around jamming their choices on me. I hate bible thumpers who try to ban books, censor speech and what not. I don't understand why people can't be religious without following and imposing zombie-like dogmatic principals.
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05-23-2005, 09:35 PM
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#8
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I think the "do unto others" rule does sum it up well. People have the right and even the need to search and ask questions about the meaning of life and such. Whether or not I agree with a religion, or religions in general, I can not look on anyone who is truly searching with anything but respect.
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05-23-2005, 09:39 PM
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#9
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i have once heard of the reverse golden rule.....don't do unto other as you would wnat them to not do to you.....i like it....like if you dont want to be punched in the face, then dont punch someone in the face
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05-23-2005, 09:42 PM
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#10
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Quote:
Originally posted by TimmyJames1976@May 23 2005, 09:38 PM
i have once heard of the reverse golden rule.....don't do unto other as you would wnat them to not do to you.....i like it....like if you dont want to be punched in the face, then dont punch someone in the face
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um...that sounded antagonistic......just meant as an example...like dont be mean if you want people to be nice, dont lie if you dont want to be lied to and what not
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05-24-2005, 10:28 AM
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#11
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Quote:
Originally posted by TimmyJames1976@May 24 2005, 04:38 AM
i have once heard of the reverse golden rule.....don't do unto other as you would wnat them to not do to you.....i like it....like if you dont want to be punched in the face, then dont punch someone in the face
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I have to say, (not that I know a ton about Buddhism), but based on what I have learned (and observed in my travels), some of the basic concepts of Buddhism revolving around Karma and how how you basically accrue good and bad acts on your record which will determine what happens later in life, as well as in later lives seems a very wise way to guide people into doing the right things. This mentality encourages people to be giving and considerate of their fellow human beings. It is not preaching hate or intolerance, or imposing strict guidelines as to how you need to live your life - just be good to your fellow man (and beast, I guess).
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05-24-2005, 10:42 AM
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#12
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Quote:
Originally posted by voyd@May 23 2005, 12:06 PM
I also agree that if such books were written today - no way would they be instantly believed with no convincing multi-media proof of their claims and some further elaboration by their authors.* There would be at least a bare minimum degree of healthy skepticism expressed by a large educated populace - not a handful of ancient ignorant villagers who would worship a radio if they ever saw one, lol.
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Good point. I always find it interesting when some "cult" leader turns up claiming to be the voice of god and everyone just dismisses him/her as a nut. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) it was the founder of the Church of Latter Day Saints that was begun by a man in the early 1800's who had a revelation that God was talking to him. Look how many of them are around today. They have a whole separate "bible" written by a more or less modern messiah. But when David Koresh says the same thing (actually many don't believe he ever claimed to be the son of god but was the victim of propaganda...but I digress) everyone calls him a nut. I'm not saying anything for or against JC, but perspective sure changes things.
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05-24-2005, 11:38 AM
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#13
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So... is this guy supporting desecrating the Qurran? Does it make it okay?
Of course the human rights issues (including religious rights) is an important topic, but one should not use it as a justification for doing things that are wrong.
It's similar to the argument that because Chinese government has human rights abuses, they shouldn't be angry about the Japanese masaacre of Nanjing.
Of course it's kind of hypocritical. Everything in politics is damn hypocritical... I doubt there is any government without some stain on their shirt, but if you operate on that logic, then no particular group or government is able to claim injustice, because everyone has done injustice.
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05-26-2005, 04:57 PM
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#14
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according to the white house nothing happened to the koran
koran mistake
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